Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[Dan]

Hi folks,
i'm not sure if this belongs in this section to be honest but it isnt really a general lizard question and there is no where else for monitor stuff.

I noticed there is a new member of the site who keeps arboreal monitors so i thought no would be a good time to ask about them. I'll just list my questions and then go from there (if they are answered)

1. Do they all get to roughly the same size as adults, if so just how big is this (not the text book figures but the normal everyday ones please)?

2. Am i correct in thinking i can feed a mainly rodent/poultry diet with the odd insect here and there or is it the other way around?

3. I am a great believer that most can become atleast not agressive because you look at them. Are there any species that are calmer than the others from word go (as a rule)?

4. What sort of viv sizes am i looking at to start babies in, and how big for adults (on average)


That'll do for now
_________________
TFA

The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................

I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!!

[arborgoanna]

Hello Dan,

I will try to offer some insight into your queries based on my experiences and observations with my captives.

I keep four species belonging to the V. prasinus complex- Varanus prasinus, V. macraei, V. boehmei, and V. beccarii.

1. Do they all get to roughly the same size as adults, if so just how big is this (not the text book figures but the normal everyday ones please)?
From the animals that I have seen in person, and animals I currently keep, as well as animals which have passed through my collection, on to other keepers, I have noticed that there are minor subtleties in size. I suppose the general consensus on the size of the four species that I keep, is that V. macraei is the largest, and V. prasinus being the smallest. However, I do not generally agree with this, in that I have seen both large specimens of V. prasinus- which would rival many/most V. macraei in adult size(the male at the San Diego Zoo is collossal!). I have also seen rather large(comparable to V. macraei) V. boehmei and V. beccarii.

So regardless of what is 'believed', I feel that all of the species seen in the hobby are capable of reaching the same general lengths. As a whole, I guess I would say that I have seen more large V. macraei individuals and more smaller V. prasinus individuals, although like I said, I have seen many individuals which defy this conception. In planning on accomodating one, I would assume that the animal is/will be/can reach 100cm in length. I have a few lengths and measurements of my animals somewhere, I will try to dig them up for you.

2. Am i correct in thinking i can feed a mainly rodent/poultry diet with the odd insect here and there or is it the other way around?
As far as diet goes, I think that my views may differ significantly from the general European approach, in that I choose to feed rodents as the majority of my animals' diet. Over the past several years, I have done some extensive testing and experimenting with many different prey items, many 'conventional, and many 'non-conventional' items. I raised 7 different species of cockroaches, as well as two species of phasmids(being that according to gut content analysis, V. prasinus feeds heavily on phasmids in the wild), birds, among many other insect and animal prey. What I have found to work best in my collection, with my animals, is a rodent based diet. I found that my animals acclimate much better, are more active, females ovluated/cycle regularly, and females put weight back on quickly after oviposition.

What I have noticed with many European tree monitor keepers, is that they tend to favor an insect based diet for their captives, with some being rather militant against feeding rodents. I believe that the reasoning behind this was due to a large die-off of captive V. prasinus several years ago, which was caused by Streptococcus agalactiae, a bacterium spread by the mice they were fed(see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12935754. I am not saying that this is THE best food item/diet for them, it is what I have found to work best in my collection, with the individuals which reside therein. An insect-based diet has proven to be very successful, as evident by the various people who have successfully bred them in Europe.


3. I am a great believer that most can become atleast not agressive because you look at them. Are there any species that are calmer than the others from word go (as a rule)?

While I do not have experience with captive bred individuals(all my animals were originally wild caught), I have noticed a few things regarding their behavior and approach to me in captivity. I have noticed, as some of you might have guessed, that eye contact makes them feel uneasy and threatened. While I do not see a problem with this in my long term captives, whenever I receive new individuals, I never look directly at them. I feel that this decreases potential stress levels.

Another thing that I now impliment, which has proven to be very successful, is the placement of my cages, with respect to me. After a fair bit of experimenting(I sure like to test things!!!), I have found that by building your enclosures higher, or even setting them atop a table or a desk, where the animals have access to areas where they are above your head, and can look down at you, even the most nervous, skittish, and high-strung animals will be much more at ease, and instead of fleeing-running into the walls, panicking, they will sit atop their 'high' perches, and watch you. Getting above your head, they are much more at ease.

You can see this with virtually any other tree dwelling animal out in nature. A prime example that I like to use is squirrels. While on the ground, it is usually difficult to approach a wild squirrel, without having it run away, or up a tree to safety. YOu would never be able to get within a meter or two of a squirrel without it fleeing from you on the ground. However, once up in a tree, even if it is just a meter above your head, you are able to come into much closer proximity to it, than you would if it was on the ground. Because the squirrel has the 'higher ground', it feels secure, even if you are only a meter or so below them.

I have found that most people set their tree monitors up in enclosures which do not offer this 'above you' height. These animals usually take much longer to settle in, and longer to gain your trust, as they have no place else to retreat to, other than into a tight fitting hide. If they were provided with a 'high ground', they do not feel as threatened, and are not as likely to dart away to cover. Instead, from such heights, they are able to watch you, observe you, and begin to tolerate your presence. I have found this to be a great resource when acclimating nervous, skittish individuals.

If you are looking for a varanid which you can hold and touch, I would highly suggest a different group of monitors, as these do not tolerate touch or handling too well. I would assume that CB individuals may act differently, but as a whole, these are rather nervous, skittish animals, which do not respond well to any stress or burdons forced upon them. For more tolerant species, which are 'tree dwellers', perhaps try V. tristis or V. glauerti, or V. scalaris.

4. What sort of viv sizes am i looking at to start babies in, and how big for adults (on average)

Most people will always say that 'bigger is better', and in general terms, that is correct. Unfortunately, most people construct large enclosures which end up being nothing more than a big waste of space, as they do not offer much in the way of usable surface area. If one was able to render the walls of the enclosure climbable/usable, you would be greatly increasing the total area of the enclosure. So many 'small' enclosures can be useful if they are made useful.. My enclosures measure 6'x3'x2', and each wall is adorned with cork tiles, to facilitate climbing. I know many people who have kept and bred theirs in enclosures much smaller, so anything I suppose, is possible. I prefer to offer as much space as I can provide them with.

I hope this provides some insight into how I care for my captives. Hopefully other tree monitor keepers in here(if there are any), can chime in with their experiences as well, as I'm always interested in hearing how others do things.

Cheers, I apologize for such a long response!!

Take care, and have a wonderful day!

Bob
Here's a photo of one of my male V. macraei utilizing the 'climbable walls' within his enclosure:

[Cornuta]

hi bob, fantastic reply with a lot of good info...

can you tell me if yo use UV lighting with your arboreals?

thanks
colin

[Dan]

Bob, don't apologise for your post!! It isnt often people take the time to post replies like that and i for one certainly welcome them

I didn't want to say which one i am interested in initially because i wasn't sure if your post would end up just covering that particular species and missing out other general information that could be helpful. Now those main questions are out of the way, it is the Beccarii i am interested in. There is something about the black on a decent sized lizard i just really like.

I have to confess one of my main problems with lizards is the amount of feeding you do (sounds crazy/lazy i know). I have just split up a vivarium i had running for a year (ish) and putting food in there just twice a week was about as much as i am realistically going to do. My aim would be to feed insects once a week and rodents/poultry twice a week.

I'm not looking for a pet as such, more a pair of animals i can sit and watch/admire, so stress through handling won't be an issue. I am much like yourself in that i like to watch and learn how the animals react to different stimuli, only i currently do it with snakes

I am shocked by the size of your vivs. I was expecting them to have the emphasis on height as much as length. I had in my mind the dimensions of 4 feet in length, the same in height and 3 feet in depth. Although now i know that little bit more i suspect that this is just too small. Unfortunately i can't guarantee i will be able to provide any more than that sort of size on a permanent basis so it looks like i'll have to forget these for now
_________________
TFA

The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................

I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!!

[JStroud]

[arborgoanna]

Well, I guess I have the tendency to turn simple responses into novellas, when it comes to varanids, as I'm sure this response will turn into.. and when it comes to sharing my own experiences, I could honestly go on for days(if nobody was there to stop me!).

Colin: I do not use specially designed UVA UVB reptile lighting, however I do use halogen lamps as basking lights(as well as household flourescent lighting to brighten the enclosures a bit) in all of my enclosures. While I am unsure of the actual UVA and UVB outputs of these halogen bulbs(never bothered to check), I do know that they do put out fair amounts of it. Whether it is enough to allow for a healthy, long lived life, I am not sure; but to date, after several years of using the same lighting, I have yet to see any deficiencies or problems associated with insufficient UV exposure.

I sure as heck don't agree with the stance of many of my american counterparts, who offer nothing more than a 15watt incandescent bulb to achieve both basking temperatures and lighting..(talk about dimly lit!!) I do believe that monitors benefit from UV lighting, but the amount of exposure needed is still questionable. Like I said, my animals appear to be doing fine(eating, growing, copulating...), with the UV that the halogen bulbs emit.

Dan: Perhaps I may be the only one who feels this way, and please do not take offense to this, but if you are only able to/planning on feeding your monitors two or three times a week, perhaps you should look into another type of reptile. While yes, many keepers are able to keep their monitors alive on such a miniscule/infrequent diet, most of these animals are suffering internally, in one way or another. Being 'alive' and 'healthy' are two separate terms, which do not always mean the same thing..

Sporadic feeding, as in what you plan on doing, is not consistent with varanids' physiological requirements. Monitor lizards, which have the fastest metabolic rates of any lizard, have extremely high energy costs, in order to power such a fast metabolism. To support such an active metabolism, monitor lizards must eat alot, very frequently. In the wild, especially in the case of the V. prasinus complex, who come from lowland monsoon forests, and other areas of relatively dense vegetation, these lizards will be exposed to a large supply of insect and prey matter. Even in the 'dry' seasons here, there is still an abundance of insect prey.

In order for such an animal to carry out a healthy life(physiologically speaking), they must eat frequently. So sporadic feedings, as you suggest, would not be in the best interest for a V. beccarii, or any other monitor lizard for that matter.. Come to think of it, I don't know of many other lizard species which would do fine with such a feeding protocol.

Monitor lizards, without a doubt, are the most expensive reptiles to care for. Between the amount of heat they require(electricity $$$$), space, and food they consume, pound for pound, by the end of the year, you have already shelled out a small fortune just for their upkeep-even for such small species as V. acanthurus or storii. Maintanence is also very labor intensive, and can even be its own full-time job(in my case!). If you honestly do not have the time or resources to put into what truly is involved/required, then I would suggest trying passing on tree monitors.

The enclosure dimensions issue you mentioned is workable, but when it comes to the feedings, there really is no alternative, and skimping won't result in a healthy, long lived monitor. I feed my monitors daily. I usually offer half of a hopper-mouse to each animal. While some don't always accept food every day, most are voracious feeders, who are able to burn off/work off the day's consumption, and are ready to go again the following day.

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences, as well as through talking with many other tree monitor keepers. Tree monitors are a textbook example of a species which doesn't respond well to insufficient/sporadic feedings, or cutting corners. These animals are very high-maintanence, and do not tolerate mistakes, or skimping on their husbandry..

I hope this helps a little. Cheers Dan, have a great day!

Bob

[Scott W]

Hi Bob,
Great posts! what forums should be all about!

You say you feed more rodent than insects to your monitors? For what reason do you follow that schedule? I also tend to feed more rodent to the tristis and glauerti as they haven't the same build as the acanthurus to store fat reserves (as you know for your prasinus) so the extra rodents keep them 'well stocked'.

I've also noticed that the faster and more active the insect prey is, the more the monitors go mad for them, almost into a frenzy.
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[arborgoanna]

Hey Scott,

I choose to feed rodents based on their performance with my animals. I have found my animals respond better to a rodent diet than an insect diet. I have noticed that my females tend to cycle repeatedly on this diet, as opposed to an insect based diet, and are also able to regain fat reserves post-oviposition much faster than an insect based diet.

My V. macraei female has been laid a clutch of eggs every three months(almost to the day!) since July of last year. To date, she has laid six consecutive clutches, and I suspect her of cycling again within the next couple of weeks. My female beccarii also tend to cycle about every 3 months or so, unfortunately with them, I haven't been able to figure out what is preferable to the females, and they have been absorbing their clutches- all except one clutch of duds that I received back in January.

Like I said in one of my replies up above, I have tested many different prey options with my animals, seeing what worked best, and which had the greatest 'acceptance' by all my captives. I was really disappointed when none of my captives would even touch the Phasmids that I was raising for them(Bacculum extradentatum), nor the several roach species I was also raising- Nauphoeta cinerea, Blaberus discoidalis, Blaberus cranifer, Blaptica dubia, Eublaberus prosticus, and Gromphadorhina portentosa. Quail went over rather well with my animals, although availability is not as great as mice, and overall, mice worked better in my collection.

It is evident that the diet I give my captives is different than most people's approaches towards the V. prasinus complex. This is just what I have found to work best in my situation, with the individuals in my collection. To each his own, I suppose....

Cheers,

Bob

[Dan]

Bob,
I'd rather have you tell me something wont work and why, than have you say otherwise in order to save upsetting me.
I have my own rats breeding that produce enough food to supply a monitors feeding dailly, and could re-organise feeding may snakes so i am feeding something else as well at the same time. Its the insect feeding dailly i'd struggle with, but if i dont need to do that it isnt a problem.

Before i say the following please don't think i am disputing you on the arboreal monitor side The gecko and lizard species i gave away this week had been on this "sporadic" regime for the last year. The palm gecko had put on significant amounts of weight, the golden gecko regrew its tail and put on weight, the moorish gecko's bred, the frogs both grew significantly and the basalisk (fed rat pups weekly on top of insects) grew up to be a lovelly looking creature. These were all on weekly feedings where i simply emptied the contents of a couple of boxes of insects into the viv each time. It may not be conventional but it worked with these particular animals.
I also had a water monitor a couple of years ago (Osiris) that i fed no more than twice a week as he would regurge or ignore the food if i tried to feed him more.
It is through these animals i worked out the feeding regime i would have used for a beccarii.

As for resources, that isn't a problem. I keep retics now so i know all about food costs and high electricity through heat levels.
I am intrigued by what daily maintenance your talking about, if you could explain a bit more on that it would be appreciated.

I would like to make it clear that if i was to go ahead with this i have no intention of skimping or cutting corners, it's just a case of finding out what i need to do - instead of doing what i THINK i need to do.

I am going to change my feeding pattern over the next week or so and try feeding something every night. If i can settle into that myself then atleast i'll know i can do the feeding aspect, which is my main concern at the moment. There is hope for me yet
_________________
TFA

The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................

I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!!

[arborgoanna]

Personally, i feel that many keepers underfeed their animals, or feed too much too sparingly- which sounds like what you saw with your salvator. When we look at tropical lizard species- those of which who come from densely forested areas, in regions which have rather static climatic conditions, we see that food is not in short supply for these animals(especially insects!).

I have noticed that in areas of abundant food supply(such as in the areas of V. prasinus or Basiliscus plumifrons), lizards are exposed to a constant supply of nourishment. Spacing out feedings over several days would not be condusive for these lizards' physiology. We typically see 'sporadic' feeding in areas where food abundance and availability is rather scarce, such as occasionally in temperate areas, and more commonly in arid/desert areas. Carnivorous/insectivorous lizards in these highly dynamic environments have the tendency to 'gorge' themselves if a certain prey item were to become plentiful. I think that a textbook example of this would be Heloderma suspectum, in which they have been known to gorge themselves on entire bird or rodent nests, and are not regularly exposed to a steady, constant supply of food, as say a monitor, or Gonocephalus from Borneo would be.

Therefore, what I am trying to say, is that tropical insectivorous/carnivorous lizards are not 'sporadic feeders' in the wild, as they have no reason to 'starve' themselves and go periods without feeding(this only adds unneeded/unwanted stress onto themselves, when it is completely avoidable and unnecessary). The food is there, therefore they will eat regularly.

Small meals more frequently is also much healtheir for a lizard's physiology and metabolism, as it maintains a steady balance of energy levels. When animals are exposed to periods without food, followed by an intake of a large amount of food, then a period without food, etc.., you get this "roller coaster" effect with highs and lows, where the animal's energy levels and metabolic rates are fluctuating drastically. This, over time, I feel, will have negative effects on the long term(and perhaps short term) health and well-being of the animal, possibly decreasing the life span.

I think it would be safe to say that an animal without physical stresses and burdons will generally live longer than one constantly faced with stresses and changes on its physiology, such as a rapidly changing metabolism and energy levels...

This is why I feel that "sporadic feedings" when it comes to tropical species(especially highly active species such as V. prasinus, V. beccarii, et al), is detrimental to their long term health and well being. Sure, the animals can survive on such a protocol, but it is very difficult for us to determine whether an animal is truly 'healthy' or not on the inside, until the animal dies. There is a difference between animals thriving and living a healthy life, and those that are 'surviving'. I have seen savanah monitors fed a strict diet of canned dogfood for their entire lives(the oldest I believe, was only 6 or so years).. These animals were surviving, but judging by their short lifespan, my guess would be that they were not 'healthy' on the inside.

In monitors, you will also see a recurring trend in animals that are fed biweekly, in that these animals do not usually live longer than 10 years in captivity. Whether or not this dietary protocol is to blame is unkown, however I would have to say that there does appear to be an obvious correlation between the two.

I feel that small meals, more frequently will ultimately result in a long-lived monitor. These are of course, my personal thoughts and opinions, however I have based my practices, thoughts and ideas on the natural situations and strategies that my captives' wild counterparts are regularly exposed to and use... I really see no benefit to sporadic feeding in such lizards, except perhaps for convenience to the keeper.

I apologize if any of this post, or my previous post may have come off as being an attack at you; as surely that was not my intention. I did not mean to accuse you of being 'lazy', and I'm sorry if I came off sounding like that. This is merely thought for discussion, and I thank you for the opportunity to chat about this. So once again, I'm sorry if anything I said was taken personally, as that was definately not my intention here.

Cheers Dan, and thanks for the conversation!

Bob