 |
Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred
A site to share your Reptile experiances & ask questions
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Michael C
I've settled in...
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Thailand
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Torture in the name of 'training' or 'behavioural scienc |
 |
|
| Michael C wrote: | So what topic is being distracted from? This supposed ‘training’ and ‘behaviour modification’ through torture? Who are these ‘professional behaviourists’ that are referred to, that will ‘see the obvious’?  Since many here actually study monitors as well as keep them, maybe you could give us the names of these behaviourists, since there are not many that specialise in reptiles, we are sure to know who you are talking about. The only thing that is apparent to me is a mentally disturbed person that gets their jollies by the abuse and torturing of monitor lizards in the name of ‘training’ or is this person so mentally warped that they think this is in some way advancing ‘behavioural science’. |
Since you have completely ignored the points of my previous post and the true methods have been revealed in their gruesome detail, please enlighten us by telling us who all these 'professional behaviourists' are who specialise in reptile behaviour that would support your methods of torture in the name of 'training' or 'behaviour modification'!
Michael |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
danceswithsavs
I'm new here...
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | ...torture...mentally disturbed person that gets their jollies by the abuse and torturing...so mentally warped... |
Thanks for reiterating your 'question'. I think Peter was able to overlook your slanderous remarks previously.
Your question is the logically fallacious 'loaded question', as i'm sure you know. We also both know that it doesn't matter what i say because you aren't interested in finding out anything, but you may as well recognise that you haven't the power to force your beliefs on me despite your rudest attempts. If you wish to teach anyone or any animal you have to get it through your head right off that force and mind are opposites. All my work is posted and available to whoever should wish to find it. I plan more videos, too.
You may be pleased to know that your own remarks are recorded for eternity as well. Once google gets my pages, your own contributions to reptile behavioural studies shall be available for all to see.
The link to the crocodile trainer was posted already. You can find his vids on youtube also. He has also done some simple training of monitors. The vids will let the keepers tell you what that meant to them. Stop living on hearsay and having a second hand life- go get the info yourself.
If you don't want to read about animal training, you are welcome to find a behaviourist of your choosing to explain the vids to you. It doesn't have to be a reptile behaviourist because associative conditioning is the basis of any learning, so anybody reasonably familiar with B.F.Skinner will be able to give you clear step.by.step explanation of the formation of the associative chains the vids illustrate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nelson
Key Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 318
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Training a sav - -=warning- graphic content=- |
|
|
Im only going to get involved with your initicial post not the subsiqent posts.
You do realise that none of the videos are anything to do with "training"? My Ackie "kisses" (as you put it) me all the time. I've not trained him to do it, he's simply tasting my breath to see if theres anything worth eating.
How long have you been working with monitors? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Parrot
Site Moderator
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 5402
Location: Over the bridge
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Hello, Peter. I have already read many of your posts, so i know you hold a strong 'naturalistic' view on the keeping of herps. |
Very true, well observed on your part.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | I don't provide my animals with a photogenic diorama. |
Neither do I, nor does any other serious keeper and observer of naturalistic behaviour. It is the conditions that we strive to keep as close to nature as possible, and often , admittedly , we fail.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | You can possibly imagine why i might be slightly defensive about the question of my motives, as it appears to be a question designed to justify a conclusion rather than a quest for information regarding the topic of training. Sounds like 'good cop/bad cop' to me. |
Yes I can imagine. (Your turn to assume  ) Your motives I want to understand clearly so that I can try to understand the bigger picture better. Good cop/bad cop, yes I can see why you reached this assumption but it is not the case however. I am merely being honest as well as well mannered.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | The topic of domestication was introduced by crocdoc |
It may well have been. It does interest me also however, and is one of the many offspring topics that is bound to be raised with a thread like yours, which like it or not, as you are well aware from previous experiences , is going to be contoversial.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | That said, i will try to answer, but i hope that the answers will subdue distractions rather than be used as ammunition for the scurrilous personal attacks such as you seem to have overlooked. |
Please do. As regards personal attacks, I have not witnessed any as yet. I have witnessed some rather abrupt criticism perhaps yes. No insults have been thrown as yet and that is the way it will stay. If any do appear, you can rest assured that they will be removed. I do seem to remember someone asking you to leave the forum however. As much as I do not sit comfortably with the whole training concept or whatever you or anyone else chooses to call it, I do not advocate such remarks and hope that you DO NOT leave the forum, but rather continue to post, just don`t expect too many people to agree on this subject. Whether people agree with you or strongly disagree with you however, personal attacks are not the way forward I agree totally.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Quote: | | Is it you`re personal desire that one day this species of monitor should become "Domesticated" in the true sense of the word? |
In a word, no. I am keeping a pair of savs who are in daily contact with human beings and who possess intelligence that makes it easy for them to harmonise with such a situation. Sure, i'm stretching the idea of 'natural' so far from 'calci-sand' that it's nothing you can recognise as the same degree of artificial as a vivarium, but it is obvious to me, from the behaviour of the lizards, that they are having no problem at all. They are a heck of a lot more similar in nature to a puppy than a goldfish.
If anyone should be interested in taming, training and selective breeding for behaviour, i'd like to think the training manual i made would not go to waste- at least providing some impetus for investigating the true intelligence of the sav. I happen to love savs. Never met a sav i didn't like.
Lilly is special, though. If there is any genetic component to her attitude and behaviour, i definitely want to propagate it. She should breed because she is a special creature. |
Thankyou for clarifying that. The rest is your personal choice of course.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | OK, on to the charge of anthropomorphism that seems to make it difficult for some to make sense of my idiosyncratic speech. |
I think the word "charge" is a little strong in this instance. We are not in court. 
Forgive me if I appear to assume or be judgemental. Phrases like "little girl" when referring to a young lizard combined with emotional and sorry, but to my mind as an observer, flowery music does instantly , I admit, prejudice me slightly into thinking "Anthropomorphisising" almost instantly. At least I am aware of this and try to compensate for it which I am doing, I assure you.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | As i wrote, any animal who has the capacity to feel pleasure and pain and also has the memory of these things has the basis of emotions. That was meant to define the terms i use so that my anthropomorphism is easy to decipher. Now, i am aware that this opens the opportunity for endless discussion of human emotions, but i need to define the terms i use for sense to be made of what i say. It also helps if someone reads what i write before accepting a second hand critique, which is sort of like eating second hand food. |
Appreciated and understood.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | So when i say an animal shows affection, it means precisely this:
the animal has in memory a lifetime of associations with a person all of which elicited pleasure. If pleasure is too anthropomorphic a term, substitute 'primary reinforcement' it doesn't change the meaning.
This makes the person a secondary reinforcer. All clear now? They seek the secondary reinforcer. It's just plain easier and equally accurate to say they like me. |
In my limited experience of any degree of , for want of a better word, "Taming" a lizard, I have found that refraining from attempts at handling etc, ie, not posing a threat has been more than just a contributing factor when a lizard chooses to take food from my fingers or climb on to my arm/leg. It`s is just my opinion based on my few experiences rather than hearsay that it is because the animal does not feel threatened that it takes the food from me, and not because it has any affection for me. Rightly or wrongly, I interpret your "All clear now?" comment rather patronising in all honesty.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | And i like them very much, myself. Otherwise you wouldn't find me spending hundreds of hours playing with them to make sure they have an enriching and happy childhood. |
I have no doubt in my mind at all that you strive to keep your animals in the best of health. You do not need to justify that at all. It`s irrelevant to my mind as I am not questioning any welfare issues. I have to stop and think or translate if you like when you refer to reptiles as having "Happy Childhoods". Again, I am not accusing you of the following, I do not know your circumstances and am not questioning them either. I am merely being honest with you when I say that such words instantly remind me of instances when people have animals as substitute children, sometimes subconsciously. As such I have to try all the harder not to be prejudice.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Quote: | | I found the videos interesting, but have to admit that the majority of the methods and apparent objectives did not sit at all comfortably with me |
Since nobody has yet spoken of any of the methods i wrote in the manual (most likely due to the fact that nobody wants to find it to read it) there has been no discussion of training methods whatsoever. |
Now you are making assumptions. I am aware of the training methods that you refer to, although admittedly my memory may well need refreshing of the details. I have seen this debate before elsewhere and did a little research back then. I did not get involved. Here, I am a moderator and am involved as A) I am interested, and B) I intend to make sure that the discussion stays fair and does not resort to insults being thrown as there is no need fo that to happen whatsoever.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | As for the objectives- you were the first one to ask anything germane to that issue in your post just now, so they have not been previously made known on this forum. Therefore i need clarification of your assumptions before i can possibly be more responsive to your remarks. |
My assumption was , rightly or wrongly, that you were trying to create a responsive and affectionate house pet out of a monitor. I also wondered what else you would gain personally from this. I find it interesting, and whether I was the first person to ask or not (I often am ) I am still interested and it does relate to everything that your thread here is evoking, whether negative in your eyes or positive. In order to try and come to terms with somebody else`s way of thinking, whether I will eventually agree or disagree, I must first try and understand the objectives concerned. That is what I am attempting to do.
I do understand the experience of forming a bond with another species as I have had a 19 year old hand reared African grey parrot from a 12 week old fledgeling. He is on my shoulder as I type. He is "Humanised" to the extreme. A far from natural existance granted, although his behaviour is very natural only directed towards me rather than another parrot.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Actually, though, i really don't want to deal with anybody's assumptions any more at all. Anybody interested knows how to find me, so additional negative reinforcement will make the forum a secondary negative reinforcer. |
I think it is safe to say that you have made as many assumptions about me as I have about you. That is human nature. The fact that we are discussing it civally between us can be nothing but good. I disagree with the need to take this discussion off the public forum . I for one hope that you answer my questions.
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Peter, the form you follow is almost reasonable, but if you are open to discussion then you can forbear rhetorical ploys to support a prejudice. |
Having genuinely not deployed any rhetorical tactics , but rather asking straight questions whilst making it clear that my basic opinion is highly likely to differ to yours, I really don`t see the need for you to be so defensive. Not in my case at least.
I look forward to your reply, and would just at this point reiterate that however strongly people feel about this subject, as indeed I do, can we please keep it cival and without insult.
Regards Peter
_________________
YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
Llinell Gymorth / Helpline: 08702 40 48 41 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael C
I've settled in...
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Thailand
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| danceswithsavs wrote: | | Quote: | | ...torture...mentally disturbed person that gets their jollies by the abuse and torturing...so mentally warped... |
Thanks for reiterating your 'question'. I think Peter was able to overlook your slanderous remarks previously. |
[quote="danceswithsavs"] | Quote: | ..."We decided to put him in the bathtub with deep water in order to exhaust him and then be the 'heroes' that 'rescue' him......"
"....After 5 minutes or so, he flipped on his back, head underwater, and remained still. This was a frightening image, as we had lost a monitor to drowning and found his corpse in the same pose...."
"We are, ourselves, upset over this inexplicable defensive behaviour, not only because it violated our expectations, but also because this is not behaviour that is compatible with living as a pet and he would have to be kept as a breeding specimen if he keeps it up." |
If this is not the very definition of abuse and torture, which are methods that the US does not even use as torture methods to their enemies, PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT ABUSE AND TORTURE IS- there are some American soldiers serving very long prison sentences for doing MUCH LESS; I am sure they could use your help.
[quote="danceswithsavs"] | Quote: |
The link to the crocodile trainer was posted already. You can find his vids on youtube also. He has also done some simple training of monitors. The vids will let the keepers tell you what that meant to them. Stop living on hearsay and having a second hand life- go get the info yourself.
If you don't want to read about animal training, you are welcome to find a behaviourist of your choosing to explain the vids to you. It doesn't have to be a reptile behaviourist because associative conditioning is the basis of any learning, so anybody reasonably familiar with B.F.Skinner will be able to give you clear step.by.step explanation of the formation of the associative chains the vids illustrate. |
Interesting, you said ANY behaviourist. Even though there are quite a few herpetologists that have studied reptile behaviour, you do not mention one- I though you wrote: ANY behaviourist. However, you give up a crocodile trainer- hmmm- I have interviewed a number of crocodile trainers here, most of which have not even finished secondary education, many of which have some very nasty scars. I will not forget that you also gave up the name of a human psychologists, who has been dead for a very long time.
Try again. Preferably with someone who has actually studied reptile behaviour, who is not dead and who will back you up on torture and abuse being an acceptable method of 'training' or 'behaviour modification'. (If you haven't noticed- reptile brains and behaviour are quite different from human brains and behaviour and monitor behaviour is very much different than the behaviour of crocodilians- so yes, it necessarily does need to be someone (that has some credibility) that understands REPTILE behaviour).
Are you trying to tell me that you can not come up with one well known reptile behaviourist, at least one herpetologist that has studied reptile behaviour that could 'back you up'?  I am quite sure that you could come up with at least ONE! Come on, there is at least one well known reptile behaviourist that you can come up with out of 6.5 BILLION people that could back you up. Off the top of my head, without having to pull out any reference, I can think of one that did a behavioural study on monitor lizards, but I am sorry, the results would be the opposite of what you are looking for- what a surprise! Yet, with your extensive study of reptile behaviour, you can not come up with ONE? Very sad.
Michael |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danceswithsavs
I'm new here...
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Michael C:
I did say ANY behaviourist and i did mean it.
Please name the behaviourist of your choice. I'll be happy to send him links to the vids and the training manual for his criticism and post his reply. Nothing is stopping you from doing the same. Nothing is stopping you from reading the manual, either. The training logs are not the manual, but you are welcome to read those in full also. The procedure of conditioning is wonderfully illuminated in the 3 training vids, the successful results of which are also visible in 2 of the ones that were just for fun.
I don't know where you got the idea that the basic mechanism of learning varied to some significant degree within our phylum...
It is irrational for you regard the late B.F. Skinner as unworthy due to his decease, but i really never did suggest his name as a personal reference. The topic was 'training a sav' and it is only appropriate to acknowledge the founder of behaviourism.
The topic started out as 'training a sav'. Apart from the content i provided, what else has contributed to the topic?
If anything is obvious, it's that the vast majority of responses have the purpose and goal of preventing the topic from being treated fairly or at all.
Queries such as yours are not meant to elicit information to adjudicate truth, but to provoke reactions. They are not meant to illuminate ideas, but to agitate a mob. It is not reason serving as your banner, but the salacious titillation of a lynching.
I did ask that a separate thread be started, if need be, for the personal attacking, psychological diagnoses, anti-whatever monologuing (i see you go for anti-american stuff- very popular these days in places) and other off topic expressions of general disapproval, but noooo.
I see that what is needed, if my work is to be presented in a forum where those interested might obtain it, would be a separate training forum i could moderate in order that it could achieve its purpose. I'm not that inspired to set up my own forum over it. I can still correspond with individuals and post videos. When the time comes, i'll probably offer pre-trained babies if i can guarantee only a sincere individual can obtain one.
I'm not the only one who wants a lizard that does more than sit in a cage day in and day out. A sav is very suitable. So the work will be done and people will learn more and perhaps one day there might be a pedigreed sav- who knows? In any event, you haven't got the brute force to shove your anti down anybody's throat. Winning and fighting are two different things. I have no need to fight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Parrot
Site Moderator
Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 5402
Location: Over the bridge
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello again "danceswithsavs". Getting back to the main point of the thread, after reading the site and "training log" finally that you sent to me, I am afraid that I do not see how you have "trained" the monitor to do anything.
All that I can see that has happened is an animal has become accustomed to associating humans with food. Much like bears do , often with tragic consequences. I will be very interested to hear from you about how the kissing of your Savs progresses once they have reached full size.
The reaction of experienced keepers here is not a lynch mob as you have referred to it as earlier to me via PM. It is however quite simply a case of common sense prevailing. Neither am I trying to elevate this thread into a public trial for animal cruelty as you have also refferred to me as doing off forum. All I have tried to do is listen to you and try and make some sense out of it all.
The "kissing" that you refer to is merely the animal trying to locate food with it`s tongue. After studying your videos as well as your training logs and "manual" I am sorry but I find the whole thing ridiculous. That is my opinion.
Nobody is "Running you off the forum" as you also claimed has happened to you elsewhere. All that is happening here is that not suprisingly, nobody is agreeing with you. Admittedly some in a more abrupt manner than others. You have constantly referred to people as not listening to you. Well I have done. I have come to the conclusion however that you are the one not listening, and will continue to treat your monitors as if they were otherwise. To quote your own words from the "Training Log" of your male monitor; . We speculate on anything we may have done wrong or if he* had some childhood traumas- we grasp at straws for any explanation. We argue like parents about the upbringing of a child...
It is not a child. It is a monitor lizard. A monitor lizard that now associates humans with food. Not "Trained" in the true sense of the word in any way whatsoever. That is the plain and simple truth.
Regards, Peter
* The male monitor lizard.
_________________
YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
Llinell Gymorth / Helpline: 08702 40 48 41 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danceswithsavs
I'm new here...
Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The "kissing" that you refer to is merely the animal trying to locate food with it`s tongue. After studying your videos as well as your training logs and "manual" I am sorry but I find the whole thing ridiculous. |
Peter, there is no sense in me repeatedly pointing out what you refuse to observe with your own eyes. If you say you can not see what is, it is neither my fault nor my problem. Reinforcement and conditioned response are facts of life. It avails you nought to attempt to redefine 'training' to suit your whim. The steps of the associative chain as the animals form them is recorded on the vids. Your ridicule doesn't change that. Approving or disapproving isn't an acceptable substitute for proving or refuting. Science is distinguished by observation, critical thinking, logic.
Is this what you consider civil debate? Expressing your approval or ridicule without calling names? A blanket condemnation done politely is not a thoughful consideration of the topic, not that it doesn't reveal something.
What it does reveal is a resistance to an idea.
Denial and prejudice are not a matter of agreeing with me or not. It is the facts that are in opposition to your beliefs. You can not argue with the facts, you can only dismiss them. This is what you have chosen to do. Thus i understand that your fundamental loyalty is to something other than knowledge or truth, as that's what you have sacrificed to whatever it may be that you value more highly.
Your fundamental dishonesty in treating this matter is worthy of note, too.
When an admin of a forum holds as a standard to participate with, encourage or appease the ones who mobilise against an idea, i have a policy of rejecting the entire forum. You have earned that honor today.
You, personally, may claim the credit for running me off by virtue of sheer duplicity. You'll be a hero among the rabble. If that was your goal, there was never any question you could do it.
for my final word on this forum, i have written an essay attempting to understand the root of the resistance to the idea of animal education.
Here it is:
An Odd Heresy: Education of Animals
With regard to the training of animals, there is a view that any form of training is abuse. The premise upon which this view is based lies with the idea that force is evil together with the false presumption, from the dogma of political correctness, that learning is only accomplished by imposition of force. Therefore one is a brute if he teaches and a victim if he learns.
The nature of any values we receive from animals is due to force. We deprive them of their liberty as the first step of their captivity.
The notion that learning is accomplished exclusively by force is a fiction. Nevertheless, the vigor with which the anti-animal-education group attempt to impose their beliefs on any opponent is as vehement as any guilty evangelist ever got. They adhere strictly to dogma, ignore the facts presented and argue fallaciously against the heretic with gleeful hypocrisy. What they mean to teach by exterminating an idea is not what is learned.
Any animal with a brain learns.
Learning happens at all times the animal is awake.
The anti-animal-education dogma has an epistemological contradiction in its attempt to separate the act of training from the act of learning. Whatever an animal learns about his keeper and the habits of his keeper is taught. Whatever a keeper deliberately or mindlessly does in the presence of his animal is training the animal. Those opposed to this would distinguish between unintentional training, calling it 'learning' (natural and good) and a keeper's behaviour which has been selected with thoughtful consideration, calling it training (artificial and evil).
Whatever! The keeper is fully responsible for everything it is possible for his captive to learn. He should not choose to be mindless about it if he would claim responsible husbandry.
A second ingredient plays into the anti-training belief system. An idealogical descendant of the 'noble savage' is the 'natural habitat' fantasy.
Zoos may have the expertise to really provide something very close to a natural environment with conditions, including actual plant species, accurately reproducing the natural habitat, but this is beyond the scope of any average keeper whose budget is not unlimited and whose interests are not in geology, climatology, african fauna and flora, ecosystems or anything else beyond what it takes to keep a healthy looking specimen.
Those who proclaim 'artificial environment' as an evil simply turn a blind eye to the fact that any keeper is providing an artificial environment by holding the animal in captivity.
But, for them, the academic exercise of providing a 'natural environment' begins and ends with decrying artificiality, even as they haggle over the diorama of their experimental vivaria without making any effort to actually identify the natural geology, climatology, or the species of flora and fauna of the african savannah.
There are many reasons to want to keep a large predatory lizard.
One of the reasons is the gore fest of fang and claw when you feed it a live rat or chicken. It's a big frisson to share this with a squeamish person, too.
That a keeper is able to manage a vicious creature is a merit badge for bravery, in his own mind, if not in the mind of the person he seeks to impress. A keeper of a friendly puppy gets no such respect for courage or daring, nor any sadistic...er, naturalistic frisson.
If they didn't kill prey, most captive monitors would be little more than ornamental. It is their behaviors that make them most interesting (to me).
While each species and each individual may have his own capacity for learning and his own natural inclinations and motivations, the nature of their expression are certainly modified by learning. Just look at what things some H. sapiens males attempt to have sex with.
The myth that a creature such as a monitor can not be trained because they have no social instincts is another argument against any attempt to find out how much they can be trained.
Whether they have social instincts or not, interaction with the environment is something that the animal will learn to do regardless of the environment. If his environment provides all his needs, including exercise and intellectual stimulation, then he will be happy. If he has control over when he gets what he wants, he will be confident.
When you keep a captive animal, you become as much of their environment as you decide to do. If you are a constant presence in his life, he will take you for granted. If you provide comforts and satisfy needs so he remembers you as who he was with when he felt so good, he will want to be around you and even on you, if you allow.
The habits an animal acquires to deal with normal daily occurences in his environment can be selectively created such that the habits of interaction harmonise with the routine of a friendly home giving maximum joy to keeper and kept. The establishment of the captive's 'normalcy' is the entire gestalt of his existence. Feeding behaviour is but one part of this. In the whole, the habits he acquires for daily living add up to a 'lifestyle' of habits which is as potent a motivation for behaviour as any instinct. The animal will make an effort to get what he is used to having. He will be unconfortable when deprived.
It should be no surprise that someone who keeps an animal in a cage with minimal handling should have an animal who has learned a hostile attitude.
A monitor accustomed to daily handling and friendly attention can be expected to show affection. It will visit and climb on you and lay on your lap for a nap and a stroking just because that's what it usually does. An animal who associates the keeper with all the good things it knows in life will demonstrate a desire for general closeness and attention.
No 4 letter words, i see- therefore it must be polite by the standards of the forum.
buh bye.
_______________________________________________________--
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robert Mendyk
I'm new here...
Joined: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you cannot see the major flaws throughout your "training article" regarding your blind assumptions and anthropomorphisms, you seriously have issues. Any animal behaviorist would scoff at (or perhaps even laugh at) your approach, your assumptions, and your "results".
Here are just a few of the obvious anthropomorphisms and assumptions you've used in your research from a "behavioralist's" standpoint...
"She is absolutely frolicking- there is no other way to describe it"
"She loves adventures!"
"She definitely knows her stuff"
"So I stopped and sang her for a minute til she let me pick her up."
"Of course, she is not comfortable in any other room and can't remember her tricks except in the bathroom. It's like remembering a line in the middle of a song- I have to start at the beginning and run through it because each part elicits the memory of the next."
"She is so adorable."
" It looks like she's locked onto 'people are a good thing'."
"In any case, once she came out again, she appeared to be in love with me"
"She's too adorable, but that's how it is when a guy thinks a girl likes him"
"As always, she's in top form. "
"I listen when she speaks."
"Bad attitude, for her, is she makes ugly looks"
[/b]
Of all of the scientific papers (aka: legitimate research) I have read over the years which pertain to ethology (including, but not limited to reptiles), I have yet to come across any which make the blind assumptions which you do in your "manual", nor do they anthropomorphize their observations as you clearly have. Find me one paper which makes any of the statements and assumptions, or anthropomorphisms which you've placed on your monitors in what I have extracted from your "manual".
In addition to the obviouus, your "research" lacks any credibility or scientific merit. Your whole "project" is something which I would expect to see perhaps coming from a ten-year-old at an elementary school science fair. And you want to be taken seriously???
You have also never addressed the question initially asked of you by crocdoc, regarding your thoughts on how training your two monitors could lead to domestication of the species. Please describe to us your 'pathway to domestication', and how the laws of inheritance do not apply here (offspring do not inherit the memories or knowledge of their parents). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sam Sweet
Contributing Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 69
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: Last refuse of the scoundrel |
|
|
This is becoming an interesting thread, and I salute the moderators for their forbearance in allowing it to continue. The experiment that is being conducted here happens often enough on other fora, but it is usually curtailed abruptly and prematurely. These threads follow a sequence, which I name here the FSJ Routine:
(1) Someone makes statements that others find misleading or incorrect (such as juvenile monitors changing sex in response to social cues, or that the limb tremors seen in calcium deficiency result from ‘collapsed backbone’, or even that “I have bred many of these, and…”).
(2) Several posts then question the premise, the initiator replies “you have no proof”, whereupon proof of one form or another is supplied, typically in the initiator’s own words or photographs.
(3) The initiator then claims insult, libel and slander while being the first to hurl inappropriate invective, whereas the other posters continue to ask this party to respond to the substance of the thread.
(4) The initiator never returns to the issue, instead posting pictures of rattlesnakes and/or escalating the invective, at the same time crying privately to the forum moderator about ‘lynch mobs’ and ‘libel’. Sometimes ‘goons’ appear on the forum as if summoned by magic to use objectionable language until the entire thread is deleted.
(5) Either of two outcomes results:
(a) A biased moderator removes posts and bans those who ‘owned’ his stooge; or
(b) The initiator curses the moderator and ‘rotten forum’, and vows to never return.
(6) The same thread appears on another forum two weeks later, as if nothing had happened.
Threads following the FSJ Routine are never about the monitors, or really, about facts. They are about people who have a need to seem authoritative without having the legitimate means to do so.
Congratulations, I see we have reached step 5(b) while I was typing this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
