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Rickeezee
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 9249
Location: Kent
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 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Mellor Gender? |
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Mellor gender is a debatable topic, no one for sure has been able yet to determine gender of the mellors unless courtship behavior has been observed.
Male and female colouration no difference, hemipenal bulge hard to detect, theory regarding size of occipital lobes and colouration below lobes, blood test (DNA), ultrasound X-rays to check for eggs, behavior at sight of another mellor, endoscopy probing, profile of underline, from belly to tail, pulsing of hemipenal bulges while basking or being watered
hemipenal plugs with feces deposits or wiped on perch are some of the more widely suggested methodologies for gender determination.
I guess, that the only sure way to tell is via the more invasive procedures and or x-rays as above. Not within everyone's grasp and no good for determining gender of young sub adults.
Which brings me onto my observations of my baby group of mellors. lately I have witnessed some territorial behaviour, I am wondering if this may in part provide a gender indicator. TBH I am not at all sure.
As the mellors have grown and developed a group of them dominate the higher branches and basking areas, often inflating their lungs and gulular at those that come into their territory, also raising their stance to appear larger. Hard to gauge definitive colour display changes as colours not fully developed yet.
I am sure such behaviours have been observed before in other countries where successfull breeding of mellors has occured. I am wondering; if anyone has any other experiences to share where they have raised a group from birth to adulthood, and then backtracked observations and records once gender has been determined, to see if any behavioural records identify or demonstrate commonalities of gender behavior from a young age?
If anyone has any observations or thoughts to share on this please post, thanks. Rick
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studiocham
I'm new here...
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 5
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Rickeezee wrote: | Male and female colouration no difference, hemipenal bulge hard to detect, theory regarding size of occipital lobes and colouration below lobes, blood test (DNA), ultrasound X-rays to check for eggs, behavior at sight of another mellor, endoscopy probing, profile of underline, from belly to tail, pulsing of hemipenal bulges while basking or being watered
hemipenal plugs with feces deposits or wiped on perch are some of the more widely suggested methodologies for gender determination. |
hee hee Rickeezee, caught ya cutting n pasting my list almost verbatim. I sure hope we can add some solid 100% methods to this list in the next couple years.
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/breeding.html
If that doesn't work...
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/index.html
click on Husbandry then Breeding
Since the Breeding page went up, I have done more looking into the methods, and found the following:
DNA testing is not currently available on this species. Only Green igs and Komodos are sequenced, and from what I read, they are close to, if not successful with, finding a 100% reliable sex marker in Heloderma sequences.
Also, ultrasound is not necessarily for checking eggs, particularly since melleri aren't multi-seasonal in natural conditions. For them, eggs of any distinguishable size aren't going to be a reliable target year round. The method of ultrasound is used on the ventral tailbase, to look for hemipenal pocket forms standing out from the normal lay of the caudal muscles. This is another method the Heloderma researchers have found to be 100%, but only on adult specimens.
| Quote: |
I guess, that the only sure way to tell is via the more invasive procedures and or x-rays as above. Not within everyone's grasp and no good for determining gender of young sub adults. |
This is pretty much where I'm at with those animals that just haven't shown any courtship displays yet, lazy things. My vet and I both feel that probing (as for snakes) just leaves too much chance for damage and not enough reliable results for the risk. What's the point in finding your melleri is female, if the sexing method damages her breeding potential? We are now talking about X-raying the entire colony, both knowns and unknowns, and checking for skeletal sex characteristics, so a key can be used by other keepers worldwide. This is one of a very few (count on one hand) larger colonies of melleri in the USA, so it's likely a good sample to start with.
| Quote: | | I am sure such behaviours have been observed before in other countries where successfull breeding of mellors has occured. I am wondering; if anyone has any other experiences to share where they have raised a group from birth to adulthood, and then backtracked observations and records once gender has been determined, to see if any behavioural records identify or demonstrate commonalities of gender behavior from a young age? |
Going back through my journals, and having the benefit of having identified individuals with non-toxic paint, I do have behaviors of individuals recorded from hatching. I have nothing solid to offer about early rank establishing behaviors being possibly gender-linked. From what I have to date, my data (though it is only one brood) indicates it is not gender-linked, but just animals asserting and maintaining their ranks. Of course, this is assuming that we have seen the exact same behaviors! It sort of makes sense that this isn't gender-linked for this species, since these chams have a very late puberty, being giants. Food fuel for growth seems the primary concern for the first couple years, instead of "who will eventually get to mate with whom".
What I find interesting is that some of the animals who were first among the brood to establish their rank have not had to loudly re-establish it more than once or twice since, and they've been cohabitating almost 2 years now. The rank foundations laid as neonates seem to stick. They also have very subtle rank maintenance signals, such as being normal and relaxed, but slowly raising one closed forefoot and basking in that pose. The cham in this pose doesn't look at any cagemate in particular, it's more of a general announcement of dominance. When the signal is down, they will all crowd around each other very tightly, even on top of each other, particularly when settling to roost.
Other behaviors, such as stick attacking/chewing, are known to not be linked; both genders do it, and some keep it up right through adulthood.
The non-invasive sexing method that has had some positive results is the tailbase profile one, as Ferguson first noted for pardalis neonates. Not sure which one is which, but whenever I sent one of each cloaca profile form out to a keeper, they have (so far) all ended up being confirmed by other methods as one of each gender. By the end of 2007, I should have the melleri profile key and its success ratio calculated.
Side note, have you noticed your babies shed in groups? Mine are STILL doing that. Everyone here is all fogged up with it.
Too bad we can't exchange melleri bloodlines, eh? All I want for Christmas is CB CITES docs... 
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Kristina Francis
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/ |
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Rickeezee
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
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Location: Kent
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi Kristina
Thanks for the reply I was hoping you would read my post. You spotted the initial information source then 
So I guess the cloaca profile method is the way to go then.
| Quote: | | What I find interesting is that some of the animals who were first among the brood to establish their rank have not had to loudly re-establish it more than once or twice since, and they've been cohabitating almost 2 years now. The rank foundations laid as neonates seem to stick. They also have very subtle rank maintenance signals, such as being normal and relaxed, but slowly raising one closed forefoot and basking in that pose. The cham in this pose doesn't look at any cagemate in particular, it's more of a general announcement of dominance. When the signal is down, they will all crowd around each other very tightly, even on top of each other, particularly when settling to roost. |
I shall watch out for the raised closed forefoot basking pose, I must admit not noticing this behaviour yet with the Mellors, but I have seen some of my other chameleon species raise one forefoot in various circumstances. I have noticed the tight crowding especially when roosting. This is my first group of baby mellors, the group behaviour is fascinating.
You mention your group has been cohabitating for almost two years now, may I ask how many you have in this group? I shall be keeping back a group so I can learn more about their behaviors and also to see how the CB ones develop, but mainly shall be keeping a few back as I like them so much! A first time experience for me, great opportunity to learn! I am very tempted to convert a small box room into a mellor free range room, very tempted.
| Quote: | | Other behaviors, such as stick attacking/chewing, are known to not be linked; both genders do it, and some keep it up right through adulthood. |
Mildred, the adult female and mother of the clutch, will attack and chew certain items within her viv. I have observed this a few times, but the frequency is sporadic and there does not seem to be any obvious triggers, well not obvious to me  But she seems to be on a mission when she does this and is quite intense at the time. The branches in her viv are tied so as to provide vertical and horizontal walkways and climbing and basking areas. She takes great delight in attacking the string ties!
Mildred will also chose a spot to roost and return to the same spot for several weeks then change roosting spots completely and so the pattern continues, perhaps this is temperature related?
| Quote: | | Side note, have you noticed your babies shed in groups? Mine are STILL doing that. Everyone here is all fogged up with it. |
Yes mine have all, almost completed their first shed. Some quicker than others but all at the same time, whether this is an age or group response related I am not sure. However I am glad to say that they have all shed well without any difficulty. Their colours are showing through now more each day, must post a few update pics soon. It is incredible to think that in a couple of years time these baby Mellors will be giants!
| Quote: | | Too bad we can't exchange melleri bloodlines, eh? All I want for Christmas is CB CITES docs... |
Now that would be awesome! How difficult would it be to arrange this? My guess is very difficult. Hmmm anyone going to America who would care to drop of and collect a few mellors? I have not been to America yet
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studiocham
I'm new here...
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 5
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Rickeezee wrote: | | I shall watch out for the raised closed forefoot basking pose, I must admit not noticing this behaviour yet with the Mellors, but I have seen some of my other chameleon species raise one forefoot in various circumstances. |
As with anything chams do, to understand the signal, you have to read it in context. When a cham pinches a forefoot and looks sharply at another (or its keeper), and then begins to laterally compress and sway, that is an escalating bluff display. It really starts with the eye contact. When there is no eye contact, and no other signal except a gently raised foot, it seems to keep cagemates at a polite distance without sending them into a reciprocal display. Without any displays to set limits, they'd just pile on each other.
| Quote: | | You mention your group has been cohabitating for almost two years now, may I ask how many you have in this group? |
Before I answer that, I want to reiterate that any group size and composition has to be acceptable to and safe for the individuals within it. The "right" number is going to vary with the circumstances, there is no hard and fast rule. I started with 50 together, then sold most of them off. My 4 large CBs are still together, in a large enclosure. 2 runts are still together, in a smaller enclosure. Cohabitation is not for all chameleons, not for all keepers, and not for all situations.
| Quote: | | Mildred, the adult female and mother of the clutch, will attack and chew certain items within her viv. I have observed this a few times, but the frequency is sporadic and there does not seem to be any obvious triggers, well not obvious to me But she seems to be on a mission when she does this and is quite intense at the time. The branches in her viv are tied so as to provide vertical and horizontal walkways and climbing and basking areas. She takes great delight in attacking the string ties! |
Have you noticed that when any young melleri are feeling particularly feisty and secure, they'll do this? I tend to think it follows the behavior line of, "practice for hunting = play". They really seem to like mauling a terminal bud or a stick, throwing their whole weight into wrenching on a piece, and brightening their colors. Some even flip their lobes at the target. They also attack the plastic zipties that hold perches to the cage frames (are zipties the same as string ties?). I always put the ziptie locks underneath the perches, so they aren't tempted. This is another reason I don't suggest using artificial plants, since some melleri will attack the plastic vine parts.
| Quote: |
Mildred will also chose a spot to roost and return to the same spot for several weeks then change roosting spots completely and so the pattern continues, perhaps this is temperature related? |
Possibly temperature, and humidity related. Maybe even pressure has an effect? During the Winter, most of the chams stay night and day on one perch... I have to handmist those who perch out of the mist nozzles' reach.
| Quote: | | It is incredible to think that in a couple of years time these baby Mellors will be giants! |
Yes, and when they are grown, it will take your breath away. There is nothing quite as nice as CB, with all of their dorsal conical crests sharp and perfect, happy colors, and tame attitudes.
| Quote: | | Now that would be awesome! How difficult would it be to arrange this? My guess is very difficult. Hmmm anyone going to America who would care to drop of and collect a few mellors? I have not been to America yet |
It can be done, but it does take some planning and commitment. CITES docs take a few months, on average. Each of us would have to clear our shipments at an international airport. I live out in the country, so for me, it would be quite a bit of travel and expense.
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Kristina Francis
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/ |
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