Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

Sean · CaptiveBred Addict! Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 602

I took the shot like this on a neutral background so it could be seen better. I do have side shots as well but as soon as I post them you should have a good idea. I can tell you that this animal was identified by some and not others, all will be revealed soon. The animal in question also walks low to the ground.

crocdoc · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject:

Sean, is that the bengalensis you posted photographs of on cybersalvator.com a while ago, when you thought it was griseus koniecznyi?

Sean · CaptiveBred Addict! Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 602

Dave, yes it is the same animal. I was gifted this specimen by Chester Zoo who had shown it to Berlin Zoo and Daniel Bennett amongst others while it was in their possession all said it was konieczyni so the paper that they gave me also said konieczyni. Now Daniel is very experienced, as well as the zoologists involved at the zoos concerned. So how or why can they miss identify this animal in question? One maybe because their is little photographic evidence to support koineczyni plus the location of this animal was from Konieczyni area in Pakistan. I also showed the pics to Bernd Eidenmuller and he could not identify it either. I later spoke to my friends at Chester and they were adamant that it was not bengalensis having worked with bengalensis in the past, plus like I said the animal had been shown around and as far as I know all said konieczyni.

Now I have to say that it certainly does not appear to even look like any of the desert monitors, and yes the head shape does resemble bengalensis but if it is indeed bengalensis then surely this animal is different to the one I posted pics of on page 4 of this thread.

When I later met Daniel and I told him that I had a monitor that he had supposedly seen and identified, he then told me that the validity of koineczyni was in doubt and maybe there was only griseus griseus and griseus caspius with possible inter-grades without going into depth of the private conversation we had.

Michael C · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject:

The side view is definitely much easier to make the determination on- as Dave said, V. bengalensis bengalensis.

The pictures that I have of the supposed V. g. konieczyni shows a much more narrow snout, but then again the views of the specimens make it difficult to be sure.

The American Museum of Natural History should have one specimen (only one) in their collection: Number 13533 Family 2580 from the Sind Province. I know you are concerned about the danger in their range, but India should not be too bad.

I would discount the idea of V. g. koniecyni being an intergrade of V. griseus and V. bengalensis. They are so distantly related (mDNA evidence (Ast 2001)) that V. bengalensis are actually more closely related to V. prasinus than V. griseus, even though externally V. bengalensis look similar to V. griseus. The African group of monitors, which V. griseus evolved from, evolved along completely different lines than did the Indo-Asian or Indo-Australian monitors; the latter two of which are more closely related.

I remember being told about that mix up made by the Chester Zoo. Were you the one that gave that specimen to Hugh Holman?

Cheers,
Michael

Stuart · Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject:

Sean · CaptiveBred Addict! Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 602

Sorry I think you mis-understood me when I said inter-grade I meant between griseus griseus and griseus caspius. Yes it looks bengalensis to me but how can there be such a mix up if indeed this animal is bengalensis when it was looked at by some of Europe's elite in this field.

Yes I gave the animal to Hugh Holman indeed. Chester says there is no mix up and to them this animal was what they thought was koniecznyi along with others in the field of varanids who identified it as so.

Michael C · Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:59 am Post subject:

Yes, Sean, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing that up. Now you have peaked my curiosity about V. g. konieczyni, since there is so little to be found about it and so few pictures that are claimed to be of them.
Cheers,
Michael

crocdoc · Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:03 am Post subject:

so, does that make this one griseus as well? As I recall, it was almost identical to the other photographs you posted of your animal.

Sean · CaptiveBred Addict! Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 602

Don't be silly Dave you know quite well that your pic is not griseus and is in actual fact bengalensis. I am not saying that the animal in the pic I posted is griseus konieczyni either, all I am saying is it was identified as so. One thing I would say though is yes it does resemble bengalensis but that doesn't mean it is this either.