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Scott W Site Admin

Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 13355 Location: London, England.
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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arborgoanna wrote: | Even if you are able to accommodate an enclosure which properly suits a pair of this species (which in my opinion should be substantially larger than what you are willing to provide), you must also take into account that there is a strong likelihood that the two animals you are planning on purchasing will not get along all of the time, and will need to be separated periodically. Housing two animals, whose individual home ranges are substantially larger than the space you are planning to provide for two individuals within the same enclosure is asking for social conflict and/or uneasiness between captives. Therefore, rather than thinking about whether or not you can accommodate a single enclosure large enough for a pair, you should be thinking about being able to accommodate two enclosures, as it is likely that you will have to separate them for one reason or another.
Many keepers often neglect the importance for having a 'backup' enclosure if need be. When dealing with a species which can inflict serious injuries to cagemates/conspecifics such as Varanus salvadorii, it is imperative, in my opinion, to plan ahead and ensure that you have the proper setup for such a scenario. Despite the many enclosures that I have occupied with my varanid collection, I always keep at least one enclosure vacant, for those times where I need to separate individuals.
As for getting bit, I cannot see any logical reason or excuse for a keeper to get bitten by any captive monitor. If you subject yourself to being bit, it is obvious that you were doing something you weren't supposed to be doing, or were extremely careless. I do not understand why so many herp keepers wear their bites as if they were merit badges or trophies. In my opinion, getting bitten should not be celebrated or bragged about as it regularly is within the herpetocultural community, it should be frowned upon because they represent one's own carelessness and stupidity.
Cheers,
Bob |
Some sensible points there Bob about back-up cages etc, even for small ackies it's something that is needed from time to time (these can be found quite quickly if needed) but a whole different ball game if yu are housing a 6ft+ monitor.
As for the bite, YES it's careless to get bitten by any animal, sometimes you can easily look back and say "man I was stupid" but sometimes these things aren't easily avoided. I personally think it's good to display the odd bite photo, some people don't appreciate quite the damage they can do, although I do agree that bites shown as 'trophies' are a tad silly (not that I think the above bite photos are posted in that way).
regards
Scott _________________
Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
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arborgoanna Contributing Member

Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 128
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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warhammer wrote: | bob do you ever pick up your prasinus or any other of your tree dwelling monitors to inspect them or to put them in a backup enclosure while cleaning there vivarium sure you do |
I cannot speak for others, but I do not see a need to physically pick up or restrain my animals to 'inspect' them. What type of inspection are you referring to, which cannot be achieved through simply viewing your animal in its daily movements through the enclosure's glass? Are you referring to invasive inspections, such as prying the animal's mouth open to check for stomatitis, etc? What more can you gather by restraining an animal for inspection than you could by viewing the animal in its regular activities through the glass of the terrarium?
As far as transferring animals from cage to cage, despite the common train of thought shared by many, there are numerous non-invasive techniques which could be used to transfer animals from one enclosure to the other, which do NOT require handling. While I am guilty of physically moving animals in the past, I no longer move the animals myself, and instead use a far less-invasive 'trap box' type system; a similar system implemented by numerous zoos throughout the world for various animals, including varanids. Not only is such an ordeal less stressful to the animals themselves, it also eliminates the possibility of being bitten.
How do you think most zoos move their venomous animals from exhibit to exhibit? Do they grab their venomous snakes and physically move them by hand? What about birds, or small mammals, or virtually any other zoo animal? Do zoo keepers chase the animals around the exhibit until they are captured, when it is time for them to be transferred to an other exhibit/holding area??
With such boxes, the animals enter at night to usually to seek refuge within its security(my boxes are long and slender-tight fitting, and filled with dampened organic media-much like that of a hollow tree limb), and are then capped off/closed off after the animal enters it. The entire box(which is devoid of light), containing the animal inside is then moved to its new location, where the entire box is placed within the enclosure, and the door opened. The animal is then able to exit the box and explore its new environment cautiously on its own terms, as opposed to being grabbed and slapped into a new and unfamiliar place by the keeper.
"Inspections" can be performed without the NEED to physically restrain or handle an individual -and therefore one does not run the risk of being bitten. No contact=no bite
The process of transferring animals from one enclosure to another does not REQUIRE grabbing and physically moving an animal to another enclosure by hand either, therefore eliminating direct physical contact with the animal, and eliminating the risk of being bitten.
Like I said before, bites are avoidable, if you do not subject yourself to scenarios where it is possible for you to be bitten. There are many alternative techniques and approaches which can be used to inspect or move monitors; handling and physical contact are not necessary. The examples you provided to support your side of the argument are in fact avoidable factors, and represent a keeper's carelessness for putting him or herself into the position where a bite may be possible.
Such claims as:
"you need to take care when handling they can be ok one minute then take a chunk out of your arm the next like i found out:
represent the carelessness that I have been speaking about this whole time. In such a situation, is having a chunk taken out of your arm avoidable? It certainly is, and the solution is quite simple. Don't handle your monitor.
On a side note, I do apologize, for I did not mean to insinuate that Adrian was bragging about the bite he sustained, I was merely expressing my general detest of reptile keepers in general, who brag about their bites. My point was that being bitten by a captive monitor(or any other reptile for that matter) demonstrate a keeper's carelessness, and shouldn't be something to be proud of.
Has anybody ever been bitten by a monitor, where the bite itself was truly unavoidable or did not fall under the three main 'scenarios' I listed above?(handling,feeding with hands, or invasion of personal space)
Bob |
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warhammer Key Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 Posts: 208 Location: chester
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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represent the carelessness that I have been speaking about this whole time. In such a situation, is having a chunk taken out of your arm avoidable? It certainly is, and the solution is quite simple. Don't handle your monitor.uuummm thats funny iam sure i have seen a pic on kingsnake.com of you holding your beccari, under name (tree varanus ) |
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Bloodboy2000 Contributing Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 93
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to say thank you for every ones input, i have been slightly put off obtaining these animals after this discussion and also due to the them being WC I'm not interested in anyway,
Are salvadori bred in the UK at all i must admit i would still like an animal but would have to be CB.
Thanks
Tom |
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Sean CaptiveBred Addict!
Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 602
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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No one as successfully bred salvadorii in the UK. |
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Bloodboy2000 Contributing Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 93
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that Sean, Are you cooking anything at the moment?
Tom |
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apocalypse Contributing Member

Joined: 10 Sep 2005 Posts: 56 Location: scotland
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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regarding the conversation about monitor bites i understand that the komodo dragon has a very toxic substance in it's saliver but what about the rest of the monitors. _________________ 2.3.4 bearded dragons
1 horsfield female tortoise
1 hermans female tortoise
0.0.1 young water dragon |
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AS I've settled in...
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Oxfordshire
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Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Although most of what is written about the Komodo is theory, I think this an accurate representation of their toxicity. Composition of the bacteria is said to comprise over 50 different species, with 4 particularly virulent species. The bacteria/ ora relationship is symbiotic, weighed heavily in the favour of the bacteria I might add. The thick gums and the serrations on the teeth increase the surface area for bacterial activity, and has been hypothesized (never documented though) that these serrations serve to hold bits of rotting meat that serve as a food source for the bacteria, this coupled with the fact that the dragons have a tendency to bite through their gums as they feed provide a protein rich sera on which the various species feed. Many people will tell you that this is a specialised adaptation for hunting larger prey, they typically bite the Achilles tendon and then trail the prey for up to two days until it dies. Whilst this happens, the idea that this is an evolutionary specialty is absolute rubbish; if you have ever seen a komodo hunt ( which I have) they typically bring their prey down by the neck and it is torn to pieces in seconds. So to answer your question, the toxicity of the ora saliva is typically peculiar to wild specimens and is attributable to the carrion that forms a part of their diet, and whilst the gums and dental morphology present a hospitable environment for the bacteria to self replicate it should not be an issue in captivity. Also, different bacteria are indigenous to different parts of the world, so the natural bacterial fauna of komodoensis would not be present in the captive/ non native environment. Consequently, if the dragons toxicity is a consequence of its location, then no other monitor is going to present similar noxious secretions, nor do they have the dental adaptations. Aside from the usual precautions one should take with any animal bite with regards to infection, the only real threat a captive monitor would present is its size and strength.
Regards,
AS |
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Dan Captivebred Communist
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 1306
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Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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You've not read Dr Fry's recent work then? _________________ TFA
The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................
I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!! |
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AS I've settled in...
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Oxfordshire
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Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I had read Fry's work. Firstly the toxins found in goannas, iguanas and bearded dragons are secreted in too small an amount to be dangerous. If you are referring to the varanid 'venom' gland that was found in a lace monitor, not a komodo. However if you are referring to the keeper bitten by an ora who developed signs of envenomation, then I have to concede that I may have been wrong about their harmlessness. Although I would say that the blood poisoning caused by wild ora bites is still likely to due to the bacteria present in their mucus secretions.
Originally scientists thought that snake venom had evolved separately, we now know it had evolved in a shared ancestor and that those lizards most closely related carried this over when their evolutionary paths separated. But once again they have no effective means of injecting venom, nor is it secreted in any serious quantity.
I thought that the original poster was referring to the ability for bacteria to colonise the dragons mouth and was asking if this was the same for other monitors; I was explaining how the komodos dentition and gingival allowed for the bacterial colonisation to work.
Like I said, the venom is secreted in too small an amount to be dangerous and I stand by my contention that monitors present a threat due to their size, strength and in the case of salvadorii their dental structure, not any inherent toxicity.
Regards,
AS |
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