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Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred
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Lynne
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Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| alastair wrote: | I have no real ethical problem with wc, so long as it is
a) done properly and humanly
b) not done so as to endanger the wild population.
obviously, importing gravid females does not meet the criteria of a), but if the pet trade gives local people the incentive to preserve populations of animals, and habitat, rather than wipe them out, then it is not necessarily a bad thing. A similar argument can be used in defence of fishing and shooting. Give people an incentive to preserve populations and they will. Dont, and they wont |
with shooting they are not allowed to shoot females during or just after the breeding season. not sure about fishing, i will need to check that out. the differance is with snakes we are dealing with live animals not dead ones.
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alastair
Key Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 446
Location: middle of England
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Lynne wrote: | | alastair wrote: | I have no real ethical problem with wc, so long as it is
a) done properly and humanly
b) not done so as to endanger the wild population.
obviously, importing gravid females does not meet the criteria of a), but if the pet trade gives local people the incentive to preserve populations of animals, and habitat, rather than wipe them out, then it is not necessarily a bad thing. A similar argument can be used in defence of fishing and shooting. Give people an incentive to preserve populations and they will. Dont, and they wont |
with shooting they are not allowed to shoot females during or just after the breeding season. not sure about fishing, i will need to check that out. the differance is with snakes we are dealing with live animals not dead ones. |
you are not allowed to fish for game fish (salmon & trout) in the breeding season. Other fish you can.
My point is that if you give an incentive for local people to preserve a population and habitat of an animal by exploiting individual animals, they will. If you remove that incentive, they have no reason to preserve that population and habitat.
I am not arguing that gravid females should be imported, that puts an unacceptable stress on the animal. But so long as properly regulated, I have no problem with wc animals.
I see no difference between dealing with live animals for the captive trade, or dead animals for sport. The trout in my freezer was alive once!
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so many morphs, so little money
1.1 Beardies
2.1 Homo sapiens jnr
0.1 royals owned by mikey |
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Lynne
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Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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ah you fish to eat then, most fishermen nowadays weigh them and put them back.
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WILDSIDE
I've settled in...
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 20
Location: SOUTH WALES
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: WILD CAUGHT |
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there is also the case that after the females have dropped the eggs the females will be sold on to unsuspecting people as c/b and they will have a nightmare feeding the females so they will suffer even more,i have just been offered as many as i can take,i refused the offer.
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1:1 ALBINO ROYALS
2:0 SPIDER ROYALS
2.1 PASTEL ROYALS
1.0 MOJAVE ROYAL
2.0 100% HET MALES ALBINO
1.0 100% HET MALE PIED
0:20 FEMALE ROYALS |
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Dracowoman2
Captivebred Colonel
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: Gwent
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I think Alastair has a point in that it does go some way to help protecting them in the wild, in a strange kind of way, I know some of the peoples of Africa are actually very protective of the Royal Pythons.
I think it's terrible the way some people pass off WC as CB, does nothing for the hobby or the poor snakes.
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www.draco2.co.uk
"Life without animals isn't life, they give much and take little"
Claire |
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Matt Harris
I'm new here...
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mike h wrote: | I agree totally that gravid females should be left in peace!
Also I don't like the idea of CF except when done properly at every stage of the process.
To widen the debate: royals are also collected for food, for skins etc.
If the CFs for the pet trade is stopped more would go to the slaughter house and end up as dinner.
From what I understand the pet trade is one of the reasons ball pythons are thriving in some parts of their natural habitat and an end to the trade that most of us don't like, could be end of the python we love so much in some areas.
food for thought I hope.
mike |
Couple of things I would like to mention in relation to the above.
1. The trade in royal skins is very limited becasue of their small size; although I have seen royal skin ornaments for sale, the demand is nothing compared to monitors, african rocks etc.
2. Some ethnic groups will eat royals, whereas others protect them strictly. I'm not convinced that stopping the export of royals would alter the pattern or extent of their use as food.
3. The idea that harvesting a species from an area provides an incentive to 'protect' that area doesn't work with royals. Those who collect royals from the wild don't own the land from with they collect, nor do they have any influence over the management of it. The lanndowners don't really receive any benefit in the form of payment for reptiles removed from their land, beyond maybe a few bottles of booze every year to keep the village chief sweet. And besides, most royals are caught in farmland; stopping export of royals wouldn't change the use of this land in any way at all.
Going back to the original point of the thread, it seems a bit daft to to me to export a gravid female. If you let her drop and then incubate the eggs, the value of the resulting babies would be more than that of the original female, even when taking into account extra packaging costs etc. |
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Central Scotland Reptiles
CaptiveBred Addict!
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 504
Location: Central Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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I, to be honest, can see both sides of this debate.
I am against importing or disturbing any pregnant, gravid or nursing female ( regardless of species ). Any short-term gain will surely be nullified by the long-term loss?
Don't forget that we, in the Western world, live a very privileged life. We are the ones who actually create the demand. So it is all very well saying the animals shouldn't be collected but put yourself in the shoes of a family, with very little income, in Africa. If an importer came to you and asked you to go out and collect as many Royal Pythons as you could, would you, in you poverty stricken state refuse? Of course you wouldn't your first concern would be to feed, house and cloth your family.
The same could be said for the Rainforest being cut down, you don't see any furniture in the wood cutters house made from Mahogany. Why, because it is all destined for the increasing demand abroad. Maybe if the demand was to stop the wood cutter would have to resort to other methods to make a living, maybe something to do with conservation.
Again ( off topic slightly ) we British are great at telling other countries not to kill this animals or to not build that dam. But didn't we do exactly the same with the bison, wolf etc etc etc etc?
I am getting dizzy on this lofty perch of a soap box, i will step down now!!!
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Fraser Gilchrist
Central Scotland Reptiles - "Finding Beauty in the Beasts" |
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Dracowoman2
Captivebred Colonel
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 2205
Location: Gwent
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Fraser, and very elloquently put, the point I was kind of trying to make, only badly 
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"Life without animals isn't life, they give much and take little"
Claire |
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