Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[harrison]

WOW...

Nice action....

[LeeWarren]

Chris

Do you think the parents are Ambanja? Because I am 100% sure they are. And they are a WC pair! Thus making the babies Ambanja.

I agree with you that there is a variation of colour within each group of locales but this is not a small variation. Just look at your green nosy be. From green to blue!

As for the brothers. The parents were WC around 7 years ago. And were nosy be. The father was green and there is no mistaking a female nosy be. So my conclusion is that the locale's Ambanja - Ambilobe and nosy be produce offspring that vary in colour enormously.

But lets put it to the test! I have just hatched some more Ambanja and Ambilobe. I will hold back all the males from each group and everyone can see the variation. Because we could be going on about this for years.

And it will create another interesting post.

[Chris Anderson]

Lee,

The "Ambanja" parents look pure, as one would expect from a WC. I do not think one can accurately identify a female pardalis' locale, however and I think this is where the hybridization occurred. Exporters frequently send out other females as a different locale to fill an order so this type of mistake is common.

Nosy Be females, like any other female pardalis, are very difficult, if not almost impossible to differentiate from each other with any confidence. The thing about hybrids is that their variation is going to be significantly higher then that within a single locale, even with the normal variation in some locales. Your one Nosy Be is incredibly far off of what is found on Nosy Be and based on his patterns, I would guess he was hybridized with an Ambilobe but who knows since you basically are exponentially increasing the potential variation of offspring when locales are hybridized. They certainly aren't pure Nosy Bes though.

Again, I'm not saying they aren't interesting looking animals, I just do not believe they are pure locales.

Regards,

Chris
_________________
Chris Anderson
cva3@cornell.edu
Co-Founder: ChameleonInfo.com- http://www.chameleoninfo.com/
Editor: Chameleons! Online E-Zine - www.chameleonnews.com
Founder: Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - www.chamaeleonidae.com

[JStroud]

Great discussion and great pictures Chris

Lee if you do hold back the males it will definitely be interesting to see the variation in development, I also thought that it did not look pure, however having never been to Madagascar and with only a basis of morphology of other captive specimens I could just have just been referring to what we see in the hobby rather then the actualy wild locales.

The same also happens with other species, look at many of the South East Asian python species...having been marketed towards a 'name' so thoroughly true animals coming from these supposed 'locales' can now look completely different to the ones that appear in breeders photos! Much the same as Hogg Island boas, I have a friend doing field research out there on the population and have seen his photos and they look nothing like supposed 'true' Hogg Island boas in the hobby!

Chris I would love to see some more of your Madagascar photos if you would be willing to share?
_________________
Regards James Stroud

[LeeWarren]

Chris

I would be keen to view some of your pics from your madagascar trip. An in depth account of your trip would be a great read for everyone im sure.

Here are some more pics. Ive found a pic of the nosy be father and another brother. Hybrid! I dont think so. Green nosy be male bred to a blue phase nosy be female? More likely!

Back to the Ambanja's, For me they are pure WC Ambanja, making the offspring Ambanja. Red bar X Blue bar? We will never know.

As a breeder i am very interested in the out come of various locales as they mature. I will be holding 10 males of each locale back, just to see how different they actually turn out. Should be interesting!

[Chris Anderson]

Lee,

The amount of red shown in "shop 2" just does not occur in pure Nosy Be specimens nor does the type of red speckling in your Ambanja in pure Ambanja specimens. I maintain the opinion that your females were incorrectly identified, sorry.

Here are two accounts I wrote up on my trip to Madagascar:

http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=41
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=33

It should be noted that the Calumma brevicorne species complex has been split into 6 additional species since I wrote that article on their variation.

I litterally have thousands of pics from that particular trip but I was using 35mm at the time so most are not scanned.

Chris
_________________
Chris Anderson
cva3@cornell.edu
Co-Founder: ChameleonInfo.com- http://www.chameleoninfo.com/
Editor: Chameleons! Online E-Zine - www.chameleonnews.com
Founder: Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - www.chamaeleonidae.com