Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[Rickeezee]

Whilst looking at various Chameleon websites; I have noticed the USA ones quite often feature Designer Chameleons for sale, usually Panther crosses.


This seems to be popular amongst hobbyists in the states but not so noticeable in the UK. If anything I think pure locales seem to more in demand?


I would be interested in anyone's thoughts or comments on this please?

Even better if anyone is into crosses?


Just strikes me as though hybrid Geckos are popular over here but not chameleons?

Look forward to hearing anyone's views, thanks.

Rick
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[Chantal]

Rick,
You are right. Here in the USA we are very much so into the mix breeds or as you call them (which does sounds better) "Designer" breeds.
A big example of this is the "Pugdle". This dog is the rage in the USA. You just can't get enough of them. It's a mix of a pure Pug and a pure Beagle. The belief is that you are hoping to get the best genes of each breeds. The Beagle is a dog that barks with no ends. The pug on the other hand is a more quiet dog. But it's nose is very flat and often has problem with it. Beagle on the other hand has a long nose.
There is also the theory that the higher the purity of the breed, the more trouble that can come about with the animals' heath and intelligence. Eventually, the "Pugdle", if breed between other "Pugdle" will become a breed that is also to pure. The mut or "Designer" dogs makes better pets. Another example is the Rottweiler. This dog is well known for hips problems. When breed with another breed, the likely hood of a vet bill or having to put the dog down become less likely.
But this isn't the case with all animals. The turtle cross breeding is rarely successful and in the rare instances when it is successful, the offspring are usually sterile. So with so many populations and species of turtles and tortoises in jeopardy, I find that mixing or cross breeding diff. species unethical.
I guess my answer would be it depends.
I'm very open minded. Was my opinion long enough for you. Any regret asking?

[Rickeezee]

You raise some good points. In the quest for locale specific chameleons being bred in the UK, i GUESS IT IS OK BUT MORE IMPORTANT TO ENSURE FRESH BLOODLINES TO PREVENT ,,,,oops caps stuck,,,,,, over "pedigree breeding".

I would also guess that in MADAGASCAR AT TIMES, LOCALES DO INTERBREED, DAMM CAPS.

I just find the whole topic interesting. I know that there are strong feelings that Locale specific should remain that way and be kept pure, this is demonstrated in the prices charged in the UK for such chams. As opposed to cross bred chams that do not seem to demand / command so much money.

It would be interesting to find out just how pure some Locales actually are in the wild?



Rick
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www.rickslivefood.co.uk

[Chantal]

The Designer pet are not always cheaper in North America.
Like I said earlier, the Pugdle is actually more expensive them the pure breed. Why?? I don't know.

[Rickeezee]

In the case of USA designer chameleons; I would suggest they are not cheap due to the costly process of producing such nice colours and varieties. Also cost rises as an animal becomes more popular.

Would perhaps be a process of discovering what stock held the most dominant gene pool of desired colours etc. Then recessive genes would come into play at times. So I would imagine it would be an interesting process and a lot of hard work to produce acceptable crossbreds for the market place.

It would also become quite competitive and, again I would guess, certain breeders would keep their secrets to themselves to protect themselves commercially. So cross breed history would be kept to a minimum from the public eye.
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[Chantal]

You seem to know a lot about this subject.
As a child, I use to enjoy cross breeding guinea pigs to see the outcomes. Needless to say, I had many of them.
The sad story behind cross breeding is that to many times, the animal is destroyed if the result desired are not achieved.
That is cruelty. My dog was going to be put down because the breeder didn't like his jaw. I adopted him and he is a great dog.

[Chantal]

You seem to know a lot about this subject.
As a child, I use to enjoy cross breeding guinea pigs to see the outcomes. Needless to say, I had many of them.
The sad story behind cross breeding is that to many times, the animal is destroyed if the result desired are not achieved.
That is cruelty. My dog was going to be put down because the breeder didn't like his jaw. I adopted him and he is a great dog.

[Rickeezee]

Thank you but my knowledge is minimal hence my post to increase my knowledge. I see your point about animals being destroyed due to incorrect anticipated results of cross breeding.

This is sad and should not happen but probably does! That is a danger in my view of designer animals, market forces!

I can also see that to much in breeding to keep a locale pure would also cause potential weakening of the strain if fresh blood lines were not used. In turn this could lead to long term health problems and genetic problematic traits being strengthened and passed on.

IMHO, as in all things, moderation and equilibrium is required.

Extremes whether they be cross breeding or locale specific pure breeding should be minimised in the best interests of the animal. What people want should be a secondary consideration not a primary one. But we live in a culture of ££££££££££££ and competitiveness. Market forces and demand will push the market in the direction that people want, this may not be best for the animal.

I am sure though that the majority of breeders are cool and put the welfare of their animals first! Well that's what I hope anyway.

Rick
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www.rickslivefood.co.uk

[T.Exeter]

Rick
Unfortunately in the UK, if anyone does anything different they are frowned upon.
I carry a reasonable stud of Furcifer,it numbers about 22(all adults WC apart from 2.1 morensetra reds).
What we all have to remember is that none of our reptiles can read,what i am trying to say is,the reptile will tell you if it's not happy.
I have spoken to a few people in the states and some of there designer morphs are awesome.
This argument came up several years ago with the GTP community.
Only breed a biak to a biak or aru to aru.
The problem with locale specific animals is you are relying on the trapper/shipper to give you the right information.
I like the cross locale breeding's,there colors are amazing.
As you are aware,we are not talking inter species breeding,but different towns.
No one seems to have a problem with a bird from Glasgow having kids with a geezer from London,so whats the problem.
Our leader tried to put his point across several weeks ago on another forum,but had the usual "you can't do that brigade" try to shout him down.
Chameleons are one of the few reptiles that will tell you within seconds if they are not happy.
So,if a cool looking stud from Amanja wants to get hot and sticky with a sweet chick from Nosy Be and she agrees,then let the love flow free.
Oh yeah, i think the CARPONDRO rocks.

[Rickeezee]

Hello T,

I see your in Kent as am I.

Couple of questions please; GTP?

CARPONDRO?

Our leader? Do you mean Scott?

Feeling dense today.

I am open minded, after all look at all the morphs in the gecko world!

I found your post interesting, thanks for that!

Having a trio of Picasso's that are from dubious origins and considered controversial as Mr Olaf PRONK WON'T TELL what they have in them, ANY IDEAS? Ambilobe and something perhaps?

It has also crossed my mind that when you buy a pair of young Madagascan Panthers the females look very similar to me, how do you know the female is a true specific locale to the male? Truth be known you don't, I certainly can not tell what locale a baby female Panther is from.

Perhaps it's just me?

cheers T.

Rick
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www.rickslivefood.co.uk