Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[morgan]

Hi all!
A question that you may be able to help me with.

I had a male and female Yemens from a young age for almost a year now and they had gone from strength to strength until recently when the female appeared to be coming of breeding age by colouring and pacing around her viv. She had not been introduced to the male as he was younger and less mature than her. A tray of damp peat and vermiculite mix has been made available but so far she has not laid any eggs.

I have been watching her closely in case she had problems laying eggs but to my surprise the male fell ill with no warning at all.
He was fine in the morning but found on the floor of his viv in the evening in a sorry state. His eyes were sunk, looked de-hydrated and coloured quite dark. Following a period of over night ‘intensive care’ he seemed to recover almost back to normal. I placed him back into his viv, so as not to stress him out any more in unfamiliar surroundings, where he seemed quite happy and regained his normal colourings and behavior by the evening .
Sadly he died over the following night.

The only thing different that had happened was that I fed him with 3 giant meal worms (as was the female) a few days before. I did watch him eat these and he crushed them up quiet well before eating them. Remains of the mealworm were seen in his stools the day before he fell ill and looked like they had not been digested fully. I had the mealworms for about a week and well fed them before using them as food.

Has anyone else had problems feeding these to their chameleons?

My set up is………
Solid sided and back viv’s with mesh fronts and top(chameleons unable to see each other)
UV 10 strip lighting, changed every 5 months, inside the viv.(12 hours on 12 hours off)
Ceramic heat from top on day/night pulse stat with a drop at night (the day time temp was a little low when checked)
Sprayed twice daily with warm boiled tap water and a dripper in use.
Food mostly locusts (home grown and well gut loaded) but other items given
Calcium (Nutrobal) and vitamins (Arkvits) once a week.
Greens given but never eaten.

Apologies for such a long post and thanks in advance.

Here’s a photo of the viv's taken when the chams were younger

[kinyonga]

Did you take the body to a vet for an autopsy? It could give you some answers.

I can't tell you why your chameleon died...you net an autopsy to tell you that....but I can see several things that might be wrong with your set-up that may have contributed.

You said..."Ceramic heat from top on day/night"...unless your home is colder than 65F you don't need heat on the cage at night. Its believed that chameleons won't move towards a heat source but look for light as a source of heat....so if you don't have a basking area for the chameleon it could be that he was not warm enough to digest his food so he might not have been absorbing all the nutrients he should have.

You said..."Calcium (Nutrobal) and vitamins (Arkvits) once a week"...si the Arkvits the ACE high one? What is the source of vitamin A in it? Does it have any D3 in it? Nutrobal has both in it. Neither say what the source of vitamin A is....but if its preformed then it could be a problem. IMHO calcium given once a week is not enough....most feeder insects that we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous so dusting at most feedings with a phosphorous-free calcium powder helps to make up for this.

Vitamin D3 from supplements and vitamin A from preformed sources can build up in the system. They can also work against each other. They both play a part in bone health (along with calcium and phosphorous) and in other functions in the body.

Phosphorous, calcium, D3 and vitamin A need to be in balance for good bone health (and other purposes in the body). When balancing them its important to look at what you feed the chameleon, what you feed to the insects that you feed to the chameleon and what you supplement/dust with. Did your male show any signs of MBD? Your female?

Appropriate temperature also plays a part in that it allows for proper digestion of the food.

One more thing...you should be providing a place for your female to lay eggs so that she won't become eggbound since they can lay eggs without being mated.

[morgan]

Thanks for your reply

I have frozen the dead male with the intentions of sending it to a specialist vet for a complete PM and toxicology test.

My house is quite a cold one with no central heating. The ceramic heaters are on a day/night pulse stat that is set to give 90-98F basking point during the day and a 10-15 degree drop at night. The lowest/cooler part of the viv is normally about 60-65F during the day. The lighting is set on a timer to come on and off with the daytime heating.

The Nutrobal and Arkvits (ACE-high) were given more often when the chams were younger (Nutrobal 3 times a week and Arkvits once a week) but reduced to once a week more recently. There has been no visible evidence of MBD even though the female had a poor start in life.
I see the Nutrobal has 15OIU, D3 plus vitamins A, E, K, B1, B2, B6, B12 & C and that the Arkvits (ACE-high) has
Vitamins A-1177IU, C-85mg, E-45IU, D3-118IU, K-, B1, B2, B6 & B12.
Is this OK or am I giving the wrong supplements.
The live food (mostly locust's) is fed and raised on a range of fresh greens plus Nutrabal added to the bran.

It would be educational to know what brand and frequency of supplement other forum members use/recommend for Yemen's.

The female has had a suitable egg laying container available for some time now.

Many thanks for your help and interest.

Regards

Kevin

[rob1468]

I gut load our crix and locusts with fresh greens , and when feeding the chams i use pure calcium (calypso) for 6 days and on the seventh just use nutrabol , i also cup feed mine and both have fresh dandilions or rocket leaves in the cup with the crix or mealworms and they both eat the cup full of greens and live , although the male is off his food at the minute and very grouchy but put that down to time of the year and also he wants to mate again and is sulking as the female is not having none of it

rob
_________________
1.1.38 eggs veiled chameleons
0.2.0 leopard geckos
1.0.1 bearded dragons
0.0.1 crestie (has arrived )

[kinyonga]

You said..." have frozen the dead male with the intentions of sending it to a specialist vet for a complete PM and toxicology test"...hope it will give you some information.

You said..."My house is quite a cold one with no central heating. The ceramic heaters are on a day/night pulse stat that is set to give 90-98F basking point during the day and a 10-15 degree drop at night. The lowest/cooler part of the viv is normally about 60-65F during the day. The lighting is set on a timer to come on and off with the daytime heating"...I see why you are using the ceramic heater....but your lowest temperatures are still too low IMHO and you still need a basking LIGHT to give the chameleons a place to warm up so that they can digest their food well. An incandescent household bulb in a hood is sufficient for this as long as it brings the basking temperature into the high 80's for an adult veiled FEMALE.

You said..."The Nutrobal and Arkvits (ACE-high) were given more often when the chams were younger (Nutrobal 3 times a week and Arkvits once a week) but reduced to once a week more recently. There has been no visible evidence of MBD even though the female had a poor start in life.
I see the Nutrobal has 15OIU, D3 plus vitamins A, E, K, B1, B2, B6, B12 & C and that the Arkvits (ACE-high) has
Vitamins A-1177IU, C-85mg, E-45IU, D3-118IU, K-, B1, B2, B6 & B12.
Is this OK or am I giving the wrong supplements"...mostly I was concerned with the fat soluble vitamins because they can build up in the system....mainly D3 and A. If the vitamin A source is beta carotene then it won't build up in the chameleon's system. There is some controversy as to whether all chameleons can convert beta carotene to vitamin A or not so giving them a LITTLE preformed is okay. I don't know what form is in the supplements you are using...so I can't give you an answer. D3 FROM SUPPLEMENTS can also build up in the system....but if your chameleons don't get direct sunlight then they will likely need a little (like twice a month lightly). Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD. Too much D3 from supplements can cause kidney problems, etc.

I use Rep-Cal phos.-free calcium at most feedings for my adult veileds. I dust twice a month with Rep-cal's vitamins that have a beta carotene source of vitamin A and since my chameleons rarely go outside, I dust twice a month with Rep-Cal's calcium/D3 supplement. I gutload my crickets with a wide assortment of greens and veggies. My veiled females usually live to be over 6 years old and my males even older. I've been keeping chameleons for over 20 years now.

You said..."The female has had a suitable egg laying container available for some time now"...that's good! Whether she will produce eggs or not is somewhat dependent on how much you feed her. There are other things that come into play with it as well. If she has no physical problems with her reproductive system and no misformed eggs, etc. and the husbandry (including the feeding) is good then she should have no problem laying the eggs.