Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[leigh0101]

I seem to have hit a nerve there. Firstly, sorry.... I'm not challenging people or playing top trumps with live creatures.

Sorry if I offended you or challenged your obvious expansive knowledge but you have not actually said anything useful to help people like me.

"I can do it so its possible and you just don't know your animals" is not enough... I need more!

What are actually doing differently that makes your chameleons happily live together? What am I not noticing? What am i doing wrong?

I'm not in a competition here... I want to learn but I'll I'm reading is that you know more than me and its my fault my chameleons cant get along. If I understood more my chameleons would be able to get along....

Why? What do you know that I don't? What exactly do you do? Is it the layout of your enclosure? Do you sing to them when they are angry? Do you talk to them and explain they should be friends? What is this secret your keeping? What is it that you understand that I clearly don't? Share the knowledge? Why are you being so vague?

Its a bit unfair to say you have this sussed but not actually give anything away with regard to how its done. Think of all the people you could help if you actually told us what this is all about?
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OF ALL THE THINGS I'VE LOST, ITS MY MARBLES I MISS THE MOST.

[BELIAL]

Haven't sussed anything...it's just the way it is...i do nothing different from any other keeper..Yeah i may have a few more than some but even those with two yemens can, if done correctly, keep them together..

No one is ever going to agree 100% about how to keep their animals and what works for one may not work for others..

[leigh0101]

Still not actually saying anything constructive there. What do you mean by "If done correctly?"

Your just implying I'm not looking after my guys properly which is a sad attitude to have. There is no kudos in being smarter than me... join the cue!

Shame you can't share what it is you know that I, and many others clearly don't. It seems you prefer to belittle me, and people like me, with your comments but have nothing helpful to say. I find this hard to comprehend.
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OF ALL THE THINGS I'VE LOST, ITS MY MARBLES I MISS THE MOST.

[BELIAL]

HEY!? Really have no idea what you are talking about but please refrain from getting on your 'high horse' in future..

Think we are done here...thank you.

[kinyonga]

BELIAL said..."if you think you know enough then they can be kept together"...there are species of chameleons that have been seen together in the wild....but unlike being in captivity they have the option of moving away from each other if they don't want to be near each other. Unless you have very large cages that are well planted, they are not afforded this choice. There are some species that can be kept together in pairs in captivity (brevs, C. chamaeleons, globifers to name a few). There are also ones that do not usually do well when kept as pairs (veileds, panthers, dilepis, etc.) In most cases one or both of these will suffer from the constant stress and go down hill. With some, such as C. chamaeleons, the fact that they reproduce only once a year may have something to do with them being able to live together more easily than others that reproduce several times a year or constantly.

You said..."Like i have always said it's not the chams that have the issues it is us"...if you put an adult male and female veiled together there will always be the issue of stress between them. They may even harm each other because they don't have the option of moving (far enough) away from each other.

I asked you to produce the papers that you said indicated that they could be kept in pairs, but you can't

Leigh0101 asked you about the "perfect" husbandry that you needed in your opinion to be able to keep them together....you won't elaborate on that either and say only that "i do nothing different from any other keeper...then why do you have success and others don't??

I don't know how long you have kept chameleons, but I have kept them for over 20 years now....and I still hesitate to keep most of the species in pairs....its just not worth the risks to keep them together. If a study proves that certain species can be kept together or even needs to be kept together, I may test it to see if its true...but until then, I will likely keep most of them individually.

Just so this is clear...I am not saying that ALL chameleons need to live individually, but there are some that are better off living that way.

[BELIAL]

i gave you the name of the herpotolgist that led the study...if you wish to look it up that is up to you...

C. chamaeleons so let me get this straight you can't keep veileds together but you can keep basically the same species together? how does that work?

i keep pairs of 1.1 yemens 0.2 yemens and at one point 1.2's and i have never EVER had an issue!? is this cos i am special!? NO this is because there is not an issue between the animals. i do nothing special at all.

[kinyonga]

I made a note of the name you provided and looked it up (Toxopeus A. G...spelled correctly)...but there is only reference to the article and abstracts and nothing that gives any indication of the findings....I will have to find a copy somewhere. I have already emailed some people to see if they have a copy.

C. chamaeleons have a much different (more docile) nature by far than veiled chameleons generally do. They also only reproduce once a year which allows them to co-habit the rest of the year without having to be concerned about frequent "sexual harassment" from the males.

You said..."i keep pairs of 1.1 yemens 0.2 yemens and at one point 1.2's and i have never EVER had an issue!?"...how old have yours lived to be when kept in pairs/groups?

You said..."i would also be interested to know which species you have kept?"...I can not possibly tell you all the species I have kept in the last 20 years, but I will name a few....C. chamaeleon, parson's, veiled, deremensis, fischer's, oustaleti, verrucosus, comoro island, dwarf jackson's, brevs, senegal's, rudis, fuelleborni, werneri and many more.

You said..."and some of your experiences with them"...concerning pairing or what??

How long have you been keeping chameleons? What ones have you kept in pairs or groups (that you haven't already mentioned)?

[Rickeezee]

Group housing is at best a contentious issue, there are threads on the chameleon section dating back a fair while that cover this topic in depth 20 plus pages on one post

We are all passionate about our chameleons and learning from each other is the way forward, please lets keep the thread on track and not let our passion for chams result in any ill feeling thank you very much. Informative Debate is healthy and progressive. Rick
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www.rickslivefood.co.uk

[BELIAL]

[quote]You said..."i would also be interested to know which species you have kept?"...I can not possibly tell you all the species I have kept in the last 20 years, but I will name a few....C. chamaeleon, parson's, veiled, deremensis, fischer's, oustaleti, verrucosus, comoro island, dwarf jackson's, brevs, senegal's, rudis, fuelleborni, werneri and many more.

[leigh0101]

Thank you kinyonga, your replies were very helpful and didn't make me feel like a fool. Words typed can sometimes take on a tone of their own so I'm sorry if I took anyone the wrong way. I really wish we could edit or delete our own posts.

Even though only 10 people have replied to the poll on my thread it seems there is a pretty even split on whether keeping pairs of veiled chameleons is a safe and healthy way of housing them.

This in itself answers the topic, which I may have caused to be lost with my grumpiness...

If you have a huge enclosure you could, in theory, keep veileds together in 1:1 or 1:2 but there are risks involved that, in my opinion, are probably not worth taking. Others feel differently.

I tried it and it didn't work for me and I'll always feel guilty for not sticking to keeping them separated. The screen allowing them to get a glance of each other through the foliage but not get to each other worked really well and is a tactic worth considering if you have an enclosure big enough to divide into two.

Other species are different but I've only ever kept veiled chameleons so won't comment.

I think the guy who started this said he was going to keep them separate anyway but does that sort of tie this thing up?
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OF ALL THE THINGS I'VE LOST, ITS MY MARBLES I MISS THE MOST.