Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[Scott W]

I though I'd post this here as the original thread on another forum kinda went belly up but I would be happy to discuss this with anyone else here.

One of my earlier posts highlighted an observation that others have also noticed. When yemens are housed in groups (only one male), the male seems less interested in the females and therefore doesn't display the aggresive tendancies when trying to mate. When I had my yemens seperate, the male would try to mate every female that he was offered, even ignoring all their warnings of not being receptive. Obviously I watched them each time and was quick to seperate before damage was done to either. But when I later set them up in groups after the initial interest and establishing territories, the male actually hardly ever tried to mate the females, also each female laid less clutches.

Now bearing in mind that their main purpose in life is to breed and pass on their genes, my theory is that housing them seperate increases the need (and desperation) to mate at every opportunity (as they don't know when they may get the chance again) this is demostrated by such brutal and rough matings with yemens that are introduced (an experiance high-lighted by a forum member from another site, he ended up with badly wounded animals). When housed in a group, the need is still there for passing on his genes but their is no pressure on the male as he can see a choice of females is always available. This is demostrated to me by the reduced number of clutches I was getting and very gentle approaches resulting in mating. When housed singular I could expect a clutch from a female almost every month, whilst in groups this dropped down to every two months or so.

Would any like to comment on my theory based on their experiances?

The aim of this thread is NOT to particularly encourage or recommend keeping yemens (or any Chameleons) in groups etc or stating that housing singular and introducing pairs is too dangerous either...just thought it may be interesting to discuss theories based on the above experiance or of course you own
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[Xenopus]

I was fascinated by this the last time this came up. I was under the impression that it was received wisdom that female Yemens lived for less time than males due to the burden of egg laying, is this correct? So, when housed in groups do your females lay fewer clutches of eggs generally (i.e. they don't keep producing infertile clutches every other month they don't lay a fertile batch?). If this is the case, as my reading of your post indicates, then perhaps these females will benefit from a longer lifespan, not shorter as some people have suggested?

[Scott W]

I didn't have any infertile clutches laid, although I must confess to not hatching many of the eggs (I didn't have time & space for the young so thought best not to incubate all eggs).

I know of others that have a group of yemens, so it would be interesting to see if they also get fewer clutches. I know with housing singular I could always NOT introduce a female and hope that she doesn't lay anyway but I'm more interested in the fact that by CHOICE the male and females don't seem to mate as desperately compared to the 'introduction' based method of breeding.
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[Mememe]

Not Yemens, but even my pygmies I though I may have so split up at first, the male was restless for a few days, almost constantly displaying and attempting to mate. About twenty seconds after introduction, the male was walking towards her rapidly, full colours. After about two days, they began to 'cool down', and now they seem to ignore each other on the most part - rarely displaying any mating behaviour.



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[Rickeezee]

I have an extremely large multi basking spotted viv that houses a 1.2 Yemens group. They have all been raised together from a few weeks old. I can honestly say they have never fought.

They demonstrate no differential in terms of hierarchical dominance, they often share basking spots, no one chameleon repetitively holds the best basking spot, there are more than one basking area and more than one basking lamp.

They do not demonstrate any feeding dominance and will all feed at the same time and at the same level within the viv, again no one cham dominates.

The group elect at times to share the same space, whether this be for feeding, sleeping or basking and at other times they occupy seperate spaces, they have a choice to do so within their environment, a crucial key point! They frequently exercise their various options.

When they share the same space they get on fine and there is no scrapping whatsoever. On numerous occasions I have observed them all grouped together to sleep, I have observed them basking side by side and observed them all feeding side by side.

In terms of breeding; the male is not a rapist as he has access to the females on a continual basis. He is not desperate to mate, my clutches are infrequent perhaps every four to 5 months if that. When the male mates, he is for a Yemen, extremely gentle. No fighting no biting no hissing etc. If the female does not want to mate he just retreats. The urgency and reproductive imperative still exist but not in a manic, desperate or aggressive manner.

Trust me if I thought any harm would occur or indeed observed any harm to any of the chams this housing situation would change. I have spent hours observing these chams from day one and kept copious written records of their group behaviours. When first housed together I kid you not I spent upwards of four hours per day observing them. I shared many of these observations at the time with Scott.

A controversial way to house them maybe. But how many folk have actually raised a group from a few weeks old to adulthood and beyond in a group situation? In a large densely planted up viv with multi basking spots? OK I know of folk who have put adult Yemen's together and they have fought, hardly surprising that is it? I have also heard numerous accounts of the aggressiveness of males when mating. I am not being dishonest when I say none of these things have occured within my group of cohabiting Yemen's!

Therefore I would put forward this as a good case for group housing. Whether behavioural and social integration has taken place due to the group housing situation who knows, but I would suggest in part that it has.

Right stress factors; I am aware of the obvious visually displayed symptoms of stress, and also the lower level hidden stress factors and symptoms. I can assure you that this group do not display any more or any less stress than those housed individually. In fact, I would say they demonstrate less, especially if you take into account random mating encounters experienced by those housed seperatley (one good reason to group house) plus no opportunity to experience behavioural or social integration. Such encounters as random meetings for breeding produce short term high level stressors. I would also suggest from observations that if they were suffering undue stress surely they would display an above average level of observable stress reactions such as hissing, inflating , gular extension and so forth with rapid colour changes. Again I can assure you such displays are extremely rare with this group.

Granted these are my observations based upon one group housing situation. Hardly scientific, just based upon one group, no pilot study with various control groups and a gradual introduction of measurable variables to examine results of differing stimuli.

Interestingly; and please do not take this the wrong way. it as an observation not a boast, but my Yemen's are some of the largest examples I have seen, and I have seen many Yemen's. My male and the females are extremely large compared to others that I have seen, this can not be justified in terms of group housing as it is an unquantifiable result, that can not be measured against other control groups. Interesting non the less.

All I can relay are my own experiences and observations. I am not saying I am right or others are wrong, as that is an immature approach to study and progression, a blanket opinion is unhealthy and such rigidity in my view is extremely stifling to progression within our hobby.

To summarise; I have found the group situation to work and to work very well for a speices that is regarded as one of the most aggressive of all chameleon speices. Careful thought went into the housing environment where a range of choices are on offer for the chams. The group were established from a very young age.

I do not advocate that a new cham owner try such housing. I do not suggest or advocate that this be tried with Yemens that have been housed individually for a long period of time. It has been raised why bother housing them together, I say why not? It has been raised that this is done to save money, trust me, a large sized custom viv with multi basking areas etc is no cheaper to set up than two small vivs! It has also been raised that such group housing is done to mass produce chams for commercial reasons. Well if so how comes in this case the mating is less frequent? Hence less commercial value! My group are relaxed, healthy and thriving and it has been a great learning experience.

I am not on a crusade to enforce my experiences or views upon others but have just shared these experiences as the topic has been raised.
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[kroakykaren]

What an excellent thread very interesting and informative thanks guys. I have no experience of keeping chams like this but it certainly sounds very natural from your findings, I especially find the section about mating fascinating and to me makes perfect sense i.e why should the male rush and mate with the female as fast as he can, when she is there all the time he can mate at his leisure surely making it a better experience for both parties
Love Karen
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[lol93]

Very interesting posts! I have only 1 male yemen and he's always been housed on his own, but I have noticed that he has a set 'routine' he follows every day. He sleeps in the same place, follows the same route to his food bowl and defecates right after breakfast. He then basks for a couple of hours before going to sit under his dripper.

Do chams grouped together show the same rigidity of routines, or do they prefer more variety? (I've just read that back and I don't know if it makes sense!)
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[Peter Parrot]

Yep, very interesting thread. Exactly what forums should be about.

I couldn`t agree more with the open minded lateral thinking approach to animal keeping of any kind that this thread is demonstrating. I agree with all the theories mentioned here, and all are backed with genuine first hand experiences.

Nobody here is telling anybody that they should do the same, but merely relating their experiences and findings. Long may we be able to continue to do so without fear an onslaught!

Nice to see it discussed fairly with out the blinkered attacks that this subject has received elsewhere.

I will only add that I have seen Rick`s group of Yemens. They are exactly as Rick describes. I stayed at Rick`s for a full week back in the Summer, and got plenty of time to observe tem. The male would allow the females to feed first, and if anything, the females appeared the dominant animals. I fed the animals myself on more than one occassion for Rick to help him get his daily chores done so that we could go out to play quicker, and can attest that they were entirely contented and peaceful during the entire of my week`s visit.
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[johne.ev]

I have also been toying with the idea of housing more than one chameleon together. just recently i have introduced my 11 month old female panther to my 2 year old (in march) male. the first time he, as you described Rick nearly raped her, causing an agressive response. i seperated them. i reintroduced them a couple of days later.this time he was much calmer but although going through the motions, i haven't yet seen any definate matings. as they were both calm & relaxed with one another i left them together. this was over a week ago. i returned the female to her own enclosure yesterday. she doesn't seem as happy & relaxed as she was when with the male, although before the introduction she was fine in her own enclosure. when they were together i also found no aggresion or competition for food or basking areas. before & during introduction she was a bright & receptive colour, now she is dark brown/green. i will reintroduce them at the weekend, when i can keep an eye on them. will post up any findings.

[Rickeezee]

I think their is something in the idea that if housed together safely the male may not be as agressive in his mating. This has been the case with my yemen group.

My Picasso male however has been raised on his own, he is not an outright rapist but will get aroused extremley easily. When a female is in with him for mating he will not leave her alone he is gentle but extremly persistant and will not give her any rest. He will repeatedly mate with her as often as he can. I have observed with my yemen male he will maybe mate with the females once or twice when they are receptive then not be bothered for days on end. The male Picasso usually comes out for a roam every day, when in with female company he refuses to come out and much prefers to remain with her, he only has one thing on his mind!

I have a few Nosy B blues that are housed individually. Now they are different yet again. I have three NB's, they all display the same chareterisitcs when mating. Not at all agressive and not apperaing to be overly bothered. So all I can suggest is that differnt chams have differing traits. Whether this be locale specific or based more upon individual charecteristics I am not sure.

My adult male Ambanja is a rapist and quite agressive when mating and a close eye needs to be kept on him and the female. He has been raised individualy.

Thus far I have not raised any other groups together apart from the yemens and they were raised from a few weeks old as a group. But later on in the year I may try this with a group of young Panthers. If I do this it will be in a correctly set up very large viv with multi basking areas etc.
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