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Rats vs Mice
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goldenburm
Captivebred Colonel


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 2109
Location: Chatteris, Cambs

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my male mountain king has 2-3 rat pinks a week, my female has a rat fluff every 7-10 days
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Lez
Contributing Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Scott.....I'm quite new to owning a snake of my own, but is it safe to feed my baby royal 2 mice at once if it took them....she/he is about 12 weeks old now....thanks
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Scott W
Site Admin


Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lez wrote:
Hi Scott.....I'm quite new to owning a snake of my own, but is it safe to feed my baby royal 2 mice at once if it took them....she/he is about 12 weeks old now....thanks


Hi Lez,

It is safe, although there is a risk of regurgitation, what is better would be to either feed something slightly bigger or just feed more often. I tend to feed my April 06 royals 3 times per week on hopper mice or twice a week on large rat fluffs, depending on the size of the snake.
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Lez
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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Scott...My royal is weighs 80g,or 2.5oz and is 17.5 inches long...but do i still leave her/he for 2 days after feeding.? thanks for your time
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Scott W
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

80g, I would feed a small hopper every 3 days. With regards to handling, if you're confident that it's feeding fine, then on the third day (day of feed) you could handle a little a few hours before feeding.

Handling is not recommend after feeding to prevent the snake stressing and then throwing it's food up and also to prevent the snake 'going off' it's food due to too much disturbance.

Once your snake hits 300g plus, you can handle alot more, perhaps just not on the day of feeding, but the day after will be fine.
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Lez
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Scott...kind of you to take the time.. Smile
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Dan
Captivebred Communist


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott W wrote:
I tend to feed my April 06 royals 3 times per week on hopper mice or twice a week on large rat fluffs, depending on the size of the snake.


Scott, not to be argumentative but that sort of feeding regime is really not good and i would go as far as to say it is detremental to the health of the snake.
The amount of stress you are putting on the snake is unlikely to be worth the weight gain. A lot of the energy that could be used to grow will be used just keeping the animal running on top speed for digestion.

Pythons and boas are mostly ambush foragers and because of this foraging strategy they may go months without eating. If you think about it, how can a 100kg animal go a year without eating (like some pythons can do)? I'm 100kg, but could only go for a week or so without eating. Basically, these snakes shut their digestive system off when they're not feeding, which causes them to have a very low energy expenditure. There is quite a difference when you measure the gut performance and the metabolism of a ratsnake - their guts are on all the time, and they consume a much more energy on a daily basis.

When they're going from a period of fasting to digestive mode, the entire functioning of the stomach and small intestine (and probably the accessory organs) change dramatically. The small intestine doubles in size, along with the heart, liver, kidneys, and large intestine growing as well. The small intestine size increase is largely due to the increase in mucosal length, which is largely attributed to an increase of enterocyte volume (an enterocyte is the cell the makes up the mucosal layer of the small intestine) Basically, most of the nutrient absorption of a meal takes place across this layer. Therefore, as the cells become larger, the functional surface area over which these nutrients can be absorbed becomes larger.

Previous studies have indicated that the presence of nutrients in the gut and the activivation of the stomach is what initiates this response. Various amino acids (leucine and proline are ones commonly used) will elicit the digestive response of the gut-these will be produced from the prey item. There may be some signalling from the stomach to the intestines in order to get them worked up. The stretching and filling of the stomach is what gets it going, so there might be a series of signals afterwards that are sent to the intestine. Basically, their digestive machinery is asleep during a fast, it takes about 1.5 or 2 days postfeeding to get the guts up to maximal activity levels for the duration of the digestive period, after which it begins to return to sleep over the span of a few days. This change is not dependant on the last meal-just the duration it takes to get back down to the fasting levels (4-10 days, 4 for a 5% meal, 10 for a 50% meal, approx). Once the change is complete, they always go back to the same level of function (off).

As you can see when asleep the energy levels consumed and the amount of blood flow used when the organs are "asleep" is minimal, by constantly feeding the snakes you are forcing the organs into constant running. This not only consumes large amounts of energy (ie over a short period of time you can probably take some of those food items and attribute them solely to to energy to keep the digestion going and not growth) but places massive strain on the heart in particular.
The heart is designed to run at full power over short periods of time only so forcing it to work so hard for so long is very likely to bring about a heart attack at a very early age.

As technology and information has grown we can now prove without a shadow of doubt that power feeding isn't just feeding large amounts, it is also feeding too often. Both attributes significantly decrease lifespan in captive animals.

I worded it in a manner i think most people can understand (possibly a little too low tech for this forums users at times?), if not then fire away with any questions
Thought you ALL might be interested to read this, not just Scott Smile
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Scott W
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting Dan,

my theory Wink

Young ball pythons I doubt are ambush feeders, after all how many young weaner rodents leave the nest in order to be ambushed? I also believe that due to the nature of the enviromenment, ball pythons tend to 'power feed' themselves in the wild in order to survive the 'fasting' period.

I am completely aware that reptiles can 'shut down' when times are hard (lack of food/water) but surely this again is a stress (all be it one that the snake has evolved to cope with).

I would have to totally disagree with the idea that feeding 3 times a week is less productive in terms of growth and weight gain, then compared to a 5 day feeding schedule. I have over 130 baby balls, and there is not one that has eaten less but bigger than the '3 times a week' feeders. I am however interested and open to the discussion that a faster feeding schedule can work the digestive system too hard (I'm guessing symptons would include regurgitation), so far I have not had any do this due to too much food. I would also say that as the snake grows, ad hoc feeding needs to be closely monitored to stop obeisty, with is obviously not good for the snake.

I am not suggesting that what I do is the best way, it's just 'my way' Laughing Wink

I have the opportunity to monitor and evaluate all 130 balls over the next few years, so maybe in the future I can post and say "Once a week feeding is far better" or perhaps "ad hoc feeding for young growing snakes is fine and doesn't present long term problems". Either way at least I'll know for sure.
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Dan
Captivebred Communist


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The really interesting bit is my previous post is based on a study a good friend of mine carried out that will be published shortly Smile

Young ROYAL pythons (you're not a yank!! Razz ) May not be amush predators but they are certainly foragers and lets face it they are unlikely to find a rats nest full of pups on a regular basis, so the digestive system will run up to full speed, stay there for a while and then come down again - which is what i was saying. They aren't meant to run on full speed all the time like rat snakes.

It's not that they can shut down when fasting, it is that they do shut down. I'm sure in the early stages of evolution this shut down period was a stress on them, but, now however they have completed this evolutionary change and it is now the opposite. So when shut down they are content yet running at full is the stress full part.

I don't think i said that feeding every 5 days is better for weight gain than feeding every second day, what i am saying is that it will lead to an early death. No theories there, just fact.
The study this was based on only lasted a few years so exactly how early a death it will bring about i can't tell you, no formula was ever produced. I'm sure though that with all your ROYALS you will be able to help with that.

The obesity factor is where the traditional power feeding idea was based. Excess food leaving fatty deposits etc etc. This new information however shows that the amount of times you feed can also be just as detremental.

It's worth mentioning though i severely doubt you will be having autopsies done on every royal you have that dies. In that way you'll never know.

People, especially the older herpers (not age so much as time herping) will allways do what they want and there way - nobody likes change. All i am saying here is the information is there now to prove that what we are/ have been doing is wrong. Producing a 10 year old snake is no great accomplishment, it should be a matter of the norm.



P.S
I hate posts like this!! I struggle to get my information across in a non argumentative way, so for anyone reading this thinking i am being awkward or argumentative etc etc please understand my situation. I was going to fill the post with emoticons and change a few words here and there but i then lose the sincerity of the post and some of the meaning so i have left it as is with this little add on.

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The future is bright, the future is a net like pattern.................

I'm NOT an expert, so if you don't want to know my opinion don't ask!!
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