Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[Scott W]

Just a note about my own experiances with yemens, this isn't a caresheet or a recommendation, just me sharing what I have experianced etc.


I have been keeping yemens for 23 months now and have tried various ways to house them. I started off rearing 10 together in a large 6ft x 3ft x 2ft viv (HxwXd). The chameleons were only a few weeks old when I got them and extremely shy, hiding everytime I approached the cage. After a number of weeks they changed and actually would approach each time I stopped at their viv as they had become accustomed to me feeding each time I went to them.

Once they hit svl's of 4" I moved them into seperate 2ft cubed screen mesh vivs (this was at 3 months old). I continued to keep them like this, introducing female to male for breeding purposes. Everything worked well, NO serious attacks etc. It was about 1 year ago that I saw a well respected breeder keeping his in 1 male / several female groups. I was suprised as I too had read the many forum 'facts' saying that it was not possible long term. I spoke to the breeder and he showed me his set up and explained that he had always kept and bred yemens without problems this way.

With this new info, I decided that I would try the same method. I modified some screen vivs so that they fitted together, doubling the cage size, I set up two UV basking lights, mutlipe branches and a mass of dense fake plants (you would have trouble spotting a 4ft Iguana in the viv with that many plants ).

I then selected the male and 3 females that had all mated without incidence and placed them in at the same time. WOW what a display, the females changed colours, the male was turning colours, I had never seen any look as bright and spectacular....I really thought trouble was on it's way . I then decided to add a handfull of large locust into the viv, just to see if I could distract them....straight away them all started to feed and changed back to their normal greens.

I watched them closely for many hours, until 'lights off' time but they all seemed to be happy to bask and pretty much ignored each other. The following morning I checked them just before 'lights on' and was suprised to see two resting on each other, couldn't see the other 2 females but all looked good. Added more locust then left them.

Over the next few weeks the interaction between them all was almost non exsitant, I spend many hours in my reptile room and never saw any mating or fighting, nor did I see any scars or wounds. In fact in that time my only worry was 'what if they get their tongues stuck together...lol' of course this didn't happen either.

After at least 9 weeks I was confident that no fighting or stresses were occuring but was a little worried that I never saw any mating either...surely my sex machine (who would mount ANY female in seconds when housed seperate) wasn't going 'gay'?

I was almost ready to change back to single housing in order to increase my breeding but then I found my first 'group' mated yemen. I left her until a few days before she was ready to nest, then seperated her to a nesting viv. She laid her eggs without problems, stayed in the nesting viv for another 7 days (fattened up and recovered), then she went back in with the group, again NO fighting but there was a little open jaw display and hissing, this lasted about 30 seconds until the female went to bask.

I have found that keeping them in a group means the male seems far less of a 'rapist' in his breeding manner and much more of a laid back 'gentlemen' offering his services when the females are totally ready. I may not get as many clutches as I did previously (in the single cage method) but I am more than happy with this 'group' method and will continue until I see any side effects with my own animals.
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[Xenopus]

Scott,
Thanks for directing me here, I'm really interested in this topic. Your point about the male 'rapist' (great description) was exactly what I was thinking and the fact that you get fewer clutches is probably more natural then introduced breeding, therefore also probably better for the females. Whilst in Kenya I saw dwarf chams (C./T. hoehnelli I believe) in bushes. There were literally hundreds of them, all different ages, all living in the bushes, barely a foot away from each other. The bushes were dense and the chams seemed utterly unfazed, gorgeous things, wish they were available here (cold requirements though). Of course, Yemens are bigger/more aggressive but the theory could still apply. I don't know much about the 'stress' that chams suffer but by the sounds of it yours have been in groups longer than any effect from this should have been obvious. So do you keep all yours in groups or are there some singletons for comparison of breeding success(i.e. growth rate of hatchlings, etc)?
Look forward to your thoughts.

[Scott W]

hi,

I keep all the females in groups, but do have spare males in single cages. These can see one another but do not react to each other, they are not stupid animals and know that they can't get to each others territory so they tend to ignore each other.

I will be setting up two more 1.6 groups, splitting the large group of females that are now mature. It will be interesting to see how the group takes, I expect a bit of hissing, some repsonse mating behaviour and then general settling down.....but who knows....may all go apir shaped and require seperating. Either way you can normally tell quite quick what will happen.
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[Scott W]

with regards to the stress, I openly admit that I can't talk to my chameleons so maybe they are totally stressed BUT they act in exactly the same way as when they were kept singular. Colours, feeding, basking etc. Like I said the only difference I have seen is that breeding seeems a far calmer event.
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[zarozinia]

Firstly, what an interesting post, I wish more people would post experiences like this.

Xenopus - this sounds very similar to what my partner experienced whilst visiting Africa

[varanus]

people seem to forget in there pursuit of natural setups and care that mimics there wild behvoiur all the benifits to them in captivity which in themselves are unnatural and not as nature intended for them

Keep up the good work Scott look forward to reading more insights after all i was under the impression thats what sites like this were made for but maybe im just plain wrong

[Daisyleo]

yeah very informative Scott am real glad I came for a browse now, I hope it continues to go well for you and you get lots of lovely more naturally bred babies from this

[Scott W]

[Scott W]

Thanks for your interest. I wish more people would post up actual experiances instead of 'what they think people want to hear' in fear of being torn to pieces.

Thanks for you posts on the lf thread too.


This is Chris Andersons post regarding the subject, copied and posted here (as the other thread is locked again ) Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense as I can't copy all the posts before & after.

"Ugh...where do I start. I'll first admit that I got sick of reading every post through after a while so if I've missed something here or there, please forgive me (I also didn't get to see any of what's been deleted which I'm sure had more info).

Chameleons are known for various traits with regard to their captive husbandry. A primary trait is their ability to hide ailments and stress until more complicated and dangerous side effects are taking hold. Once this has occurred, treatment of the animal and returning the animal back to prime health is notoriously tricky and not nearly as successful as with the majority of other reptiles. As a result, I'm sure most would agree that careful observation and meticulous efforts to spot problems early are of the utmost importance with chameleons. Further, in an attempt to minimize the likelihood of problems, it is also regarded as optimum to avoid potential situations and care that is known to have a high likelihood of increased problems. This should be a priority of anyone keeping any animal-the avoidance of practices which increase the likelihood of ailments and decrease the average life expectancy of the animal. This is especially true of keepers who lack the amount of experience needed to catch potential problems at their earliest point. This is my primary reason for recommending against keeping chameleons in groups.

I too have attempted group housing in veileds and other species and I did not feel that the results were beneficial to the animals, which is my main concern. I had at least one incidence where a female veiled was seriously injured by a male. I no longer keep any Chamaeleoninae in groups other than short periods for breeding.

While I do not think the practice is a good idea for the vast majority of keepers, that is not to say it is not possible under certain circumstances. Considering the solitary nature of chameleons, their susceptibility to stress, the more forceful and aggressive nature of Ch. calyptratus, and the limitations on the ability for individuals to avoid one another in the confined space of a cage, any attempt to keep them together should be done by experienced keepers (so as to best detect problems before they are a major issue), in large cages (so as to best allow the animals to avoid each other), with access to multiple basking, perching, feeding and high positions in the cage for the chams to occupy.

Scott-you are keeping 1.3 in a 4'x2'x2' enclosure, correct? In my opinion, this is far too small for a group (especially one with a male) to be housed. In general, adult male veileds are recommended to be given a cage that large for themselves. By also putting 3 females in that cage, you are not providing them with the necessary room to avoid each other. When you consider their age (2 years) only about half of that has been when breeding would play a part in the stress levels. Keep in mind, just because it has worked for 2 years does not prove that it is not a potentially serious danger to the well being of the animals involved. You also mentioned that this is more successful when the animals are from the same clutch and raised together. Please tell me the male in this group is not related to the females! How large is this enclosure you are keeping the 12 females in?

sbstephensbs-Sitting there talking about throwing in a third when your cage is not even adequately setup for one is extremely careless. If nothing else, you need to set your cage up so it is appropriate before you consider adding the additional stress of multiple animals in a cage. Further, you mentioned you have had good success with past veileds. How long did these live for you? I'm curious what you classify as good success as this experience will be critical for you keeping these chams together.

I think one thing people should keep in mind is that veileds aren't particularly difficult animals to breed, even under the most horrid conditions. There are people who house them in some of the smallest of enclosures with minimal water and food and they still breed them in high numbers. Just because something is working does not mean in any way that it has any benefit to the animal or will lend itself to providing a long life. Stress can act in many ways to shorten the life of these chams and unless these chams end up living as long as individuals kept alone should, I believe it to be an inferior method unless a large enough space is provided under careful management.

There are exceptions to the rule and they are exceptions just for that reason, because more often than not, it will not be that way. If the wellbeing of the animal is the priority rather than “how many animals can I cram into one cage,” erring on the side of caution is far better for the animal than gambling with the possibility of it working. Making choices like this should only be done with careful consideration to the animals involved with specific attention to the need to avoid each other whenever necessary and to the behavior of each animal. I personally feel the size cages that are being discussed her are too small for multiple veileds. I don't deny for a second that keeping them in groups can work very well for an experienced keeper but one should only do so in an appropriate environment. A cage just big enough for a single male is not large enough for 4 animals IMO.

Chris"

My reply...awaiting posting

Hi Chris, thanks for your post.
Firstly I would like to point out that this is NOT an argument, irrespective of what your hero worshippers suggest. I have not posted anywhere what is right or wrong with regards to calyptratus. I was just posting up my experiances with keeping calyptratus in groups, which I'm sure you'll agree is what these forums are about....SHARING experiances.

Reading all the "yeah...we won...we won" type posts that followed your post just showed me yet again that a certain group of people are blind to what they read....As you even posted "that is not to say it is not possible under certain circumstances" and " I don't deny for a second that keeping them in groups can work very well for an experienced keeper". Now I know your not encouraging this method in your post but you are 'open minded' enough to know that it can work. So for Chamgril to say "What he says goes" (lol....after you actually agreeing that it CAN be done) must make you feel like they have missed the point too?

A couple of other comments in your post aren't actually correct but I accept that after reading so many pointless posts you were more than happy to 'skim' read, I didn't say that they are best reared from the same clutch, in fact as I posted in a more in-depth post on my own forum, the 1.3 group were actually adults when housed as a group, Also, my males are not only from different clutches but also different COUNTRIES....some from a German breeder and some from the Czech.

It may suprise people to learn that you also tried keeping yemens in groups, as in deed it suprised me when I first saw it here whilst visiting one of the UK's few professional breeders but I have since spoken to several people who also keep 1 male and mutliple females, again without incidence.

Once again, my posting is in no way advising people that they should be kept in groups any more than yours was. Thankyou for your post.
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[varanus]

very well said