Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

JStroud · Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject:

Completely agree, well said Paul Wink

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Regards James Stroud

AlbigularisCrazy · Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject:

You all have very good points, but is it natural to keep them in cages? with fake suns(bulbs)? Not natural substrait(ie not what the live on in the wild)? Foods (They don't eat crix and rodents)? How bout temps(fluctuates more in the wild)? ALL this is UNNATURAL. In the wild there surviving, in captivity there thriving and living. I just see things differently than you guys, and that's ok. No one has to agree or disagree etc....

Chad

AlbigularisCrazy · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 am Post subject:

I forgot to add, Trying to mimic nature is imposable, i don't care how hard or long you try or even close you think you getting it is imposable to copy mother nature. If you haven't tried it you don't know how it works, or if you tried it for a Short period, that doesn't prove it wrong or right, like my self with my current albig only being 1.5 years old. The bosc is not in my hands but 8 years old, but its still young as you all know, I'm going to keep using 24/7 lighting, maybe years down the road it will be more widely accepted out side the US.

Chad

AlbigularisCrazy · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:56 am Post subject:

I forgot to add, Trying to mimic nature is imposable, i don't care how hard or long you try or even close you think you getting it is imposable to copy mother nature. If you haven't tried it you don't know how it works, or if you tried it for a Short period, that doesn't prove it wrong or right, like my self with my current albig only being 1.5 years old. The bosc is not in my hands but 8 years old, but its still young as you all know, I'm going to keep using 24/7 lighting, maybe years down the road it will be more widely accepted out side the US.

Chad

crocdoc · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:43 am Post subject:

still waiting for the proof you were telling us about.

I'm not going saying that it's bad or good, but you said you had proof that it had no effect on longevity and I am waiting for your proof.

AlbigularisCrazy · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:25 am Post subject:

Did done, just that my longevity isn't long enough We went through this twice already. I guess it wasn't "proof" 8 years, like i said already in a few years 10+ ill let you know how the albig and bosc are doing, if you or i are still around i guess. You personally have had ALOT more success than i have. So i guess that leaves me behind. But almost everything if not everything of keeping them is unnatural, so whats SO wrong with 24/7lighting? I'm at a lost now. I'm fighting a lost battle.

Chad :/

Scott W · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 7:49 am Post subject:

Hi Chad,
It's no 'battle', you are trying something that many others wouldn't. I personally don't think it will do any more damage to your lizards than certain diets that people use or feeding regimes.

This is what forums are about, discussing ideas and different methods, we're not all going to agree and use the same so it's good to hear what other people are doing, so long as they stick to facts and observations etc.
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

crocdoc · Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:14 am Post subject:

Chad, the reason I keep harping on about the proof is simple.

No one knows the long term effects of 24/7 lights because no one has been trying it on monitors long enough to know if it is still possible for them to live long lives under those conditions. When I say long lives, I mean 30 years, not 1.5 or 8. So you can't go around telling people you have 'proof' of 24/7 lights having no effects on longevity because no one knows that for sure. Even you said yourself that the 8 year old sav wasn't raised on 24/7 lights but has been switched to that only recently.

Although captivity isn't nature, monitors are still natural animals. They are adapted for things like circadian rythms, even when they aren't in nature. I don't follow that whole 'this ain't nature, so why try to do anything natural' argument, for if that were the case we'd be keeping them in plastic boxes on newspaper and feeding them vegetables (using your own argument: 'they may be carnivores in nature, but this isn't nature').

24/7 lighting clearly does no immediate damage to monitors. I've used it myself with my first monitor when it was young, as it was mid winter when I got it and I had no other way of heating its enclosure at night at the time (I now set up hatchlings and juveniles differently than I did then).

It isn't just the 24/7 lights that may (or may not) affect them, it's the fact that they're pretty much living life in 'hyperdrive' because of the associated access to warmth 24/7. They're eating more, growing faster, breeding younger. Every study on any other animal doing the same has resulted in them dying younger. The old 'a candle that burns twice as quickly lasts half as long' adage.

Does it matter? Not really. Long lived, short lived, faster growth, slower growth. It's all personal choice.

My personal reason for not using 24/7 lights is simply because I like my animals having a sense of day and night. And they act accordingly, responding to the circadian rhythm. I'd hate to live in a brightly lit room 24/7 (regardless of being able to hide from the dark under my bedsheets) so why subject my monitors to that?

Adding to the Sweden 24/7 sun discussion: I grew up in Canada and a fair few of my zoology colleagues spent summers up north. They said that the endless sun in summer drove them nuts.