Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[brittone05]

As far as I knwo Rick, Rob is a memebr here already

I have mailed him asking his views on it and whether he can offer any of his own experiences of it.

As soon asI get a reply, I shall let oyu know what he say

[Rickeezee]

[brittone05]

not sure hun - I know on another forum, RobUK is Rob Lane from Uk Chameleons.

I know on the other forum, Rob P is under as Rob2004 (I think lol)

[Rickeezee]

[Scott W]

Rick, you've got into a nasty habit of quoting EVERY reply (and yes I'm expecting you to quote this post in your reply to it )
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[Rickeezee]

[Scott W]

well, when no one has replied inbetween posts it's obvious who you're talking too
_________________

Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk

[brittone05]

Now now boys hehehehe

Have received a reply form Rob but am waiting for his okay to post it up here for you to read

[brittone05]

This is Rob's reply to my mail asking his views on housing together

I dont house chams together, it just isnt worth it.
I have tried time and time again with hoehnelii and jacksonii, from multiple localities and origins (WC, WF and CB) and it usually results in failure.
The biggest problem i find with discussions and literature is that people say they have successfully housed pairs and trios together with no problems BUT they never actually say for how long. Sure it can work for many weeks if not months BUT it does not work for the full life time of the animals.
When you work with chams (or other herps) for a long time and breed them well over several generations and thus see animals from birth to death, you realise that they have personalities like people and as they grow and mature and age their personalities change as well.
You might be lucky and house two chams together for months with no problems and then suddenly, for no reason, something changes. It might not be apparent by behaviour or colouration, but one will start to go down hill and you dont know why and you usually will lose it. And so now I avoid this situation by keeping all chams separately. By all means I introduce them to eachother for the sake of social development and recognition, but thats about it. No more contact other than mating of course.

I once had a lovely trio of Poroto three horned chams (C. fullebornii) that I raised as a group for around 2 years from youngsters. All was fine, i watched them and made sure all were feeding and active as normal then something changed. One female decided enough was enough and took up dominance, the result was even the male was terrified, so all had to be separated. What changed I dont know, it just did.
Each cham has its own personality, its own desires and outlook on life. Some are outgoing and bold, others timid and quiet, but then suddenly the behaviour changes and the once quiet timid animal becomes the top dog. I find it a lot with young animals that are being raised as a group. You watch them and see a dominance hierachy forming, some animals grow fast and big whereas others get surpressed so you have to separate them for their own good (they would naturally disperse in the wild). But it is interesting to then see how those separated animals develop compared to their dominant cage mates. Stumpys dad for example was considerably smaller than his brother and so had to be separated. His larger brother was clearly the most dominant of the clutch and I had high hopes for him being a top breeder but once stumpys dad was on his own he suddenly bloomed and grew into the stunning 25cm long male I now have whereas his once larger and apparently more vibrant brother grew up to be a mediocre male of average size and not particularly bright colours.

All animals are different and have different environmental and social needs and to make things even more confusing, these change as the animals mature or even with the weather or time of year. Thats why it is important to keep them separately as when you receive them you simply dont know at what stage of life and development they are at yet. You might get two random chams that get on great, whereas as another combination they hate everything that comes near them. I once had a clutch of C. jacksonii jacksonii young and I found that two of the males got on fine in a free roaming setup. It was so odd to see two mature male horned jacksons who didnt bat an eyelid at eachother but would fire up and attack any other male they came into visual range. Then one day i had to clear out the room where they lived for decorating, thus separating them for about two days. On reintroduction they displayed and fought as males do, what ever tolerance they had developed for eachother was now gone, and so they were separated. It was sad to see the brothers go there separate ways.

So keep em' separate. That way you can monitor and give the animal what ever it needs, rather than having to try and compromise between the two and work out what each wants in the same cage.

On another point, i also noted that someone on the forum said about seeing many hoehnelii in a hedge in kenya. This again is a classic misinterpretattion of what actually happens most of the time- taking a one off example and assuming this is how things are all the time. Sure you get boom times when the chams tolerate close proximity to eachother due to high levels of food and basking access, males alongside females alongside babies. But then something changes, whether it be the rains stop raining, or the temperature changes, and the chams are gone their separate ways again.

Chams are antisocial, secretive and inconspicuous. They dont need eachother or us. They occupy a 360 degree world of ups, downs, highs and lows. Sometimes they come across eachother and fight, sometimes they mate, sometimes they bask next to eachother, but they always have the option to walk away and never see that particular female or male or branch again. Some species can be more tolerant than others, but once again this often comes down to the individual animals plus how they have been raised and from what age they first met.

Sorry if ive over loaded you! I love trying to get inside chams heads though!

Rob


I then went on to ask how he would feel about me housing my Hoe's together - they were after all his babies that he bred himself and his opinion means a great deal to my decision

Tis was his response

Hi Brit

feel free to copy and paste my last email to you, no probs.
I am not a frequent "inputter" to forums because I dont have time mostly, Im so busy at work and then at home with my wife and the animals. When an interesting bit comes up about hoehnelii or other animals that i work with then usually friends of mine who do watch the forums let me know and I will have a look.

By all means try stumps in with his female, have you got her yet? I would imagine she is still quite small compared to him so i wouldnt do anything until she is at least a year old and well grown on. Make sure the cage is a good size, i mean 4 feet long by 3 by 3, that will give them good space to go their separate ways if need be.
The biggest problem with housing a pair of hoes together is that once the male is established and territorial he will display and chase the female every day, and this gets very tiresome for both parties. Hoehneliis are active little buggers, they live fast and die young so have to spread their seed asap!
By all means try it but I really wouldnt push it long term, you will simply end up with a harrassed female which will only become even more stressed when she is gravid and she in turn will attack the male right back.

Rob


I hope that helps somewhat - I shall let ROb know of any other questions or anything that arise fomr this post too and try to get him to pop over

[Rickeezee]