Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[ian14]

In reply to the query of where this info can be found, the Police National Legal Database can be accessed via the internet - I believe that a subscription needs to be paid to access it, although I did try and it allowed me to search the site!! If you get onto it, by putting "wildlife" into the search box, you will get a load of hits, simply go through until you find the Wildlife and Countryside Act index. I can assure you that it makes clear that the legislation applies to animals in a wild state prior to sale.
As far as the sale of eggs/spawn goes, I would suggest that this is illegal if it has been collected from a wild site, given that the legislation refers to the species in all stages of the life cycle.

[Matt Harris]

The is no clear definition of 'captive bred' either in the WCA 1981, as amended, or the Habs Regs, as amended.

The WCA itself re-enacts and amends, among others, the Conservation of Wild Creatures and Wild Plants Act 1975. The definitions of 'wild' and 'captive bred' etc may be in there, but I've not been able to lay my hands on a copy.

As for WCA 1981, section 9(5) prohibits trade of 'wild animals' listed in Schedule 5. 'Wild animal' is later defined in S. 27(1) as '...any animal (other than a bird) which is or (before it was killed or taken) was living in the wild'. This implies that F1 offsping are legal to sell, as they were never living in the wild.

Furthermore, is you extrapolate from birds to other animals, S. 27(2) says ' A bird shall not be treated as bred in captivity for the purposes of this Part unless its parents were lawfully in captivity when the egg was laid.'

As I say, if grass snakes follow this rule also (yes, I know they're not birds), and there's no law against catching or keeping them, then provided the eggs were laid in captivity, the resulting hatchlings should be legal to sell.

This is my interpretation of the text I have in from of me, but it's likely that DEFRA (or WAG in Wales), will have a different interpretation. The trouble is I can pretty much guarantee that if you try to 'phone them up and ask for a definitive answer, you'll be there for ages.

Regarding 'common' amphibians, there is a general licence to sell them outside of the breeding season.

[Crunchie]

Thanks very much for this info people it's been very helpful.

I just wonder where all the F2 generation stuff has been picked up from if this is the case.

[ian14]

My thanks to Matt for confirming what I had said!

[GarryIOM]

You are so lucky . I can only dream of rearing grass snakes here ( there are no native wild populations of Snakes / Newts / Toads or Slow Worms on the Isle of Man - just the Common Frog & Common Lizard ) . If anyone can help me obtain a couple of young grassies or slow worms that would ace .

[ian14]

I have since had confirmation from DEFRA that the legislation relates ONLY to animals which were WILD CAUGHT. It makes no distinction between first, second, or any subsequent captive bred generations. Therefore, if the animal was bred IN CAPTIVITY, even from a wild caught adult, then from a legal point of view, the hatchlings can be quite lawfully sold. Whether people view this as morally right or wrong is another matter, but before people get on their soap boxes, lets not forget that all the species we take for granted as captive bred came from wild caught animals, and that the hobby started with a handful of keepers in the US who captured native US species and managed to successfully breed them. You cannot get captive bred animals with species new to the hobby unless you collect adults from the wild to breed from!! It was quite normal when I started out to see wild caught corns for sale.

[lovesnakes]

this has been a very interesting post to read.

I would just like to add that perhaps instead of breeding native UK herps for personal finance (which is why i'm assuming people are after the info' on the legalities of sale and so forth!!)
why not establish a program where by captive bred natives can be released back in to the wild?!
surely this would be a win win situation?
it not only gives the breeder the satisfaction in knowing they have successfully bred the reptile in question, but more importantly they help sustain wild numbers!! (that's got to be worth it's weight in gold, surely )

what would be the legalities in such a program?
would it be possible to release captive bred natives in any place deemed suitable for the individual? or would you be looking at whole new set of problems of possible "unlawful releasing"?

cheers
_________________
best of luck in the new season

[Drymarchon32]

[lovesnakes]