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Morbid
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can eat salmon, and living good on it too, but the salmon has to be sprinkled with alot of calcium, and some vitamines. Strange that it did not feed on earthworms, it is often something that the species really like. They often goes totally mental, when worms is offered. Pinkiemice does work as well. But if you have the possibillity, try to feed it with frogs.
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Drymarchon32
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to keep a lot of garter and ribbon snakes when I was younger, 5 species of Garter and 2 species of Ribbons) the best food was newts/slamanders and frogs for sure, worms went down really well too. I'm surprised its not taking worms, have you tried slugs or snails freshly de-shelled so they are still moving?
I realise some people will say that snails are great parasite vectors but they are great food and Garters are hardy little beasties. I also used to feed them live goldfish in the winter either placed in the water bowl so they could fish for them or just left flopping around in the enclosure. (This is probably the frowed upon that Fatboy mentioned) I was living in the U.S. at the time and had everything else i needed for food in the garden. Have you got a stream or pond nearby that you can collect fish with a net? Watch out for the bailiffs though Smile Sticklebacks might be a problem with the spines so try to catch minnows and small Roach. (Its not like you'll be taking more than the population in the river can sustain.)
I agree with Peter, they are a really interesting group, some of the most amazing discoveries have been made about them in the last 20 years that so far appear to be unique to Garters.

This is a great article

http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=30

Quote:
They found that the garter snake could survive freezing exposure at -2.5 degrees Celsius for three hours


There has also been research into the storage of toxins derived from prey that would otherwise be leathal to most predators.

http://www.physorg.com/news3616.html

Just thought I'd add a few bits for the geeks among us Smile

Anyway, hope you have luck with the feeding

A
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FatBoy
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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Location: Glasgow.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morbid wrote:
They can eat salmon, and living good on it too, but the salmon has to be sprinkled with alot of calcium, and some vitamines. Strange that it did not feed on earthworms, it is often something that the species really like. They often goes totally mental, when worms is offered. Pinkiemice does work as well. But if you have the possibillity, try to feed it with frogs.


I agree with morbid in some respects.

Salmon will indeed sustain it in the short term, adding some vitamen D is a must because it metabolises the calcium. But, if you're not providing whole prey items then you are only providing a half diet regardless of the amount of added vitamens you supplement with. This is still acceptable in America and Europe but has been frowned upon here for some time. I have spoken to Dr Alan Francis about this subject at length as he has a wealth of experiance on the subject. And he reckons that the snakes growth is stunted by feeding in this way. As said, some keepers in America and Europe still do it, so it's your choice.

I do agree about frogs, tadpoles, newts etc. but they are some of the taboo things I mentioned in an earlier post. Unless of course they were bred for that specific purpose.

I would still advice (in public Wink ) rodents as the way forward. They make a superb staple which can be varied every so often with the inclusion of fish and whatever else it will take. That way you don't have to worry about the dangers of feeding fish.

Out of interest is your wife against the feeding of rodents, or does she not want them in the freezer? As I know a good few people who don't like the mice beside the mince so to speak. Laughing
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FatBoy
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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Location: Glasgow.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drymarchon32 wrote:
I used to keep a lot of garter and ribbon snakes when I was younger, 5 species of Garter and 2 species of Ribbons) the best food was newts/slamanders and frogs for sure, worms went down really well too. I'm surprised its not taking worms, have you tried slugs or snails freshly de-shelled so they are still moving?
I realise some people will say that snails are great parasite vectors but they are great food and Garters are hardy little beasties. I also used to feed them live goldfish in the winter either placed in the water bowl so they could fish for them or just left flopping around in the enclosure. (This is probably the frowed upon that Fatboy mentioned) I was living in the U.S. at the time and had everything else i needed for food in the garden. Have you got a stream or pond nearby that you can collect fish with a net? Watch out for the bailiffs though Smile Sticklebacks might be a problem with the spines so try to catch minnows and small Roach. (Its not like you'll be taking more than the population in the river can sustain.)
I agree with Peter, they are a really interesting group, some of the most amazing discoveries have been made about them in the last 20 years that so far appear to be unique to Garters.

This is a great article

http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=30

Quote:
They found that the garter snake could survive freezing exposure at -2.5 degrees Celsius for three hours


There has also been research into the storage of toxins derived from prey that would otherwise be leathal to most predators.

http://www.physorg.com/news3616.html

Just thought I'd add a few bits for the geeks among us Smile

Anyway, hope you have luck with the feeding

A


Great post mate. Shows the differences between American herpetoculture and ours...yanks get so much more freedom than us! lol

And yup, feeding of live goldfish is included in my taboo list...but I did have to resort to that for a while with a particularly fussy garter.

Cheers for the links will have a wee read at them in a while. Smile
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Drymarchon32
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was very lucky as a kid, I mean going through the american school system even for a couple of years was just laughable, but the stuff in my back garden was amazing. Used to catch frogs for the snakes in the garden "pond" but you had to be careful you didn't lose a finger or two to the snapping turtles Very Happy
I'm not saying that everyone should go out catching food for their snakes but when in Rome.......
American herpetoculture has some greater freedoms than in the UK even though you should see the process you have to go through to get an Indigo snake in most states!
I have mixed views on American herpetoculture, could you ever imagine "Adder" roundups in the UK similar to the US rattlesnake round ups? I can't belive it still continues. If it was in the UK then people like us would be the "Hunt Protesters" Mad

A
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Muttley_109
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Girlfriend (not my wife Laughing ) used to have pet rats and mice so she wont feed rodents to the snake unfortunately.
The only whole fish small enough i have found were pre packed and frozen. He would eat these but my car died and I havnt been able to get anymore. I did put some small live fish in his water bowl but he wasnt interested.
Im going to try worms again to see if he has changed his mind yet. Hopefully he wont be so stuck up and demand salmon and nothing else Laughing
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FatBoy
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Location: Glasgow.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drymarchon32 wrote:
I was very lucky as a kid, I mean going through the american school system even for a couple of years was just laughable, but the stuff in my back garden was amazing. Used to catch frogs for the snakes in the garden "pond" but you had to be careful you didn't lose a finger or two to the snapping turtles Very Happy
I'm not saying that everyone should go out catching food for their snakes but when in Rome.......
American herpetoculture has some greater freedoms than in the UK even though you should see the process you have to go through to get an Indigo snake in most states!
I have mixed views on American herpetoculture, could you ever imagine "Adder" roundups in the UK similar to the US rattlesnake round ups? I can't belive it still continues. If it was in the UK then people like us would be the "Hunt Protesters" Mad

A


lol yeah, I've heard a few...erm... interesting stories about the school system across the pond. Laughing But I'd imagine it would be an incredible experiance having such a diversity of animals around you.

Totally agree with you on the roundups. A deplorable thing that HAS to be stopped before it's too late! I can't comprehend the mentality of the people who are involved in them, or indeed for that matter the folk who go along for the 'entertainment' of it. Mad
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FatBoy
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
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Location: Glasgow.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muttley_109 wrote:
My Girlfriend (not my wife Laughing ) used to have pet rats and mice so she wont feed rodents to the snake unfortunately.
The only whole fish small enough i have found were pre packed and frozen. He would eat these but my car died and I havnt been able to get anymore. I did put some small live fish in his water bowl but he wasnt interested.
Im going to try worms again to see if he has changed his mind yet. Hopefully he wont be so stuck up and demand salmon and nothing else Laughing


Oops, sorry, my bad. Laughing I can see her reasons behind not liking the idea of feeding rodents.

The frozen fish would be better but again you have to be aware of the potential problems. Fish contains thiamin, but the liver (gutting the fish doesn't work because you're depriving the snake of other good vitamens) contains thiaminase which destroys any thiamin the snake takes in.

You can denature the thiaminase by heating the whole fish to 80 degrees C for a few mins. This will partially cook the fish so a sprinkling of a good all purpose reptile vitamen is a must. Vitamen B1 also counteracts thiaminase, and a good tip a mate of mine suggested was to shove half a brewers yeast tablet down the throat of a fish every third feed.

I know this sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing, but a build up of thiaminase in the snake can lead to neurological damage and eventually death. By all accounts it was the cause of a lot of deaths of garters in the 70s. Rolling Eyes

Another possibility might be to breed your own minnows to feed to him!?!?
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Muttley_109
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Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been dusting the salmon with nutrabal.
I did consider setting up an aquarium to keep fish in. But our animal room is full at the moment.
We are looking to move into a bigger house soon though so i may set up an aquarium then. A friend of mine works at a garden centre in the fish dept. Last time he gave me some small fish for free and he supplies another friend with fish for his piranha.
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FatBoy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muttley_109 wrote:
I have been dusting the salmon with nutrabal.
I did consider setting up an aquarium to keep fish in. But our animal room is full at the moment.
We are looking to move into a bigger house soon though so i may set up an aquarium then. A friend of mine works at a garden centre in the fish dept. Last time he gave me some small fish for free and he supplies another friend with fish for his piranha.


I hear you on the space issue. Laughing

If you can get him on to the fish from the garden centre then it's probably your best course of action mate. It just seems you have picked a fussy snake. Laughing
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