Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[JStroud]

Let us know how the contact about the newts goes Peter

Done a quick literature search and found some titles that may be of interest to you, haven't had a chance to look at them myself so don't know how useful they will be but could provide an insight? If you have trouble accessing any of the papers let me know and I'll email them over to you

Bell. 1977. The Life of the Smooth Newt (Triturus vulgaris) after Metamorphosis. Ecological Monographs

Malmgren JC, Thollesson M. 1999. Sexual size and shape dimorphism in two species of newts, Triturus cristatus and T. vulgaris (Caudata: Salamandridae). Journal of Zoology

Raxworthy CJ. 1990. A review of the smooth newt (Triturus vulgaris) subspecies, including and identification key. Herpetological journal


Oh and another one I thought might interest you as well but not so much on topic...(you might/probably have already seen this though mate)

Hels T, Buchwald E. 2001. The effect of road kills on amphibian populations. Biological Conservation


Cheers
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Regards James Stroud

[Peter Parrot]

Interesting stuff James.
Much appreciated, thanks.

[Peter Parrot]

Quoting David Bird;



There are apparently quite a few of these hybrids now recorded. I had a photo of one sent to me the other month and came to the same conclusion as Jeroen but as this was in his garden pond where no Balkan specimens had been introduced the hybrid was much more likely.

David
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[Peter Parrot]

The owner of the pond forwarded me a few more snaps of the likely hybrid. The straight edged crest and tale filament are clear to see as is the speckled throat which is a vulgaris characteristic.
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INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
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[Peter Parrot]

I also have recieved a reply from the person that David Bird refers to two posts previously;

Hi Peter ,

I am the person that Dave mentions in that last post .I too would agree that you too have found a smooth/ palmate hybrid. I sent pics of the animal that I found off to Richard Griffiths at DICE and he too agreed it was a hybrid specimen . Richard is one of the co authors of the "New Naturalist Reptiles and Amphibians" and within the book he refers to a hybrid that he found at a pond in mid Wales ,photo included (black and white) , also John Buckley of the HCT sent me pics last month of a hybrid that he found in his garden pond .

I would not be suprised if there are a lot more of these hybids out there , perhaps folks just Don't idenify them correctly and further to this ,female smooth /palmate hybrids would be extremely difficult if not impossible to I.D


Also one more pic;
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YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
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www.btcvcymru.org
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[James]

A very interesting post, I take it the hybrid was released back into the pond, wonder if its fertile(not sure if that's the correct word). If it is possible to reproduce do you think this could effect the numbers of palmate and smooth newts in the future?

also forgot to mention your doing a great job, the future of amphibians doesn't look very good at the moment but with people like you and with more exposure hopefully it will get more people aware of the problem and hopefully something can be done against the fungus.

[Peter Parrot]

Thanks for the positive comments James. Measures are in place regarding the fungal pathogen, I personally have a good deal more swabbing to do over the course of the next month, but the truth is that we know so very little about it that it is very much an uphill struggle. We have so very little time to achieve an incredibly ambitious amount. I constantly hear the same message when talking to anyone that is involved with conservation and ecology, that the position of amphibians in the globe`s ecosystem is precarious to say the least.

Regarding Vulgaris/helveticus hybrids, Jeroen Speybroeck explains the situation;


By definition, hybrids are infertile. This holds also true for (the few recorded) hybrids of these species. Species that are less distant from an evolutionary perspective do, however, produce partially fertile offspring = reproduction possible, but with clearly reduced fertility. This, of course, being a simplification of matters such as speciation, introgression, hybridogenesis (water frogs), ... .


Yes the animal was returned to where it was found.
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YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
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[Peter Parrot]

More info regarding hybrids and fertility.

Apparently;

T. vulgaris x T. helveticus hybrids have been recorded successfully breeding with the parent species (at reduced fertility), according to:

Macgregor, H. C., Sessions, S. K., & Arntzen, J. W., 1990. An integrative analysis of phylogenetic relationships among newts of the genus Triturus (family Salamandridae), using comparative biochemistry, cytogenetics and reproductive interactions. J. Evol. Biol. 3: 329-373.

(They state that T. vulgaris x T. montandoni hybrids can also breed with the parent species; the cristatus group is also well known to produce viable hybrids. )

You should be able to get a pdf here; http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1420-9101.1990.3050329.x?cookieSet=1

It's a big one (and some of it's a bit out of date), but it's well worth reading. The hybridisation stuff is on page 339.
_________________
YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
Llinell Gymorth / Helpline: 08702 40 48 41

[James]

interesting stuff, hopefully we don't just end up with one mixed up hybrid type species that nobody can identify its origin but considering the actual amount of hybrids recorded I take it this is very unlikely to happen.

[Scott W]

Real interesting thread Pete, thanks.

With regards to the hybrid, I guess if it's happened now and before then overall it must get diluted down over time and disappear again or perhaps they form the beginings of a new ssp?
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