Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

Crunchie · Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject:

It's bizarre really the law regarding this isn't it. The only thing I can think of is if you took the snakes to the vet when they were preggers to get DNA tests done and then the offspring as well but what vet would do something like that.

I have a slow worm that I got from Germany and I've been looking for a boyfriend for her for a while. Problem is that even if I do find one all I have at the moment is a letter from the place I bought her saying 2thisslow worm was legally sourced from Germany" or something similar. Really it's no proof at all.

I can't actually see the police or anyone like that looking into things like this very seriously but it would be nice to know exactly where we stand.

ian14 · I'm new here... Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 15

As a wildlife crime officer with Thames Valley Police, I should be able to answer the quetions here!

The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 is the legislation covering the collection and sale of native species, which is dependant on who endangered the individual species is.

As it stands, it is an offence to capture and sell native British herps. The big problem arises with animals sourced from abroad. As none of our native herps are endemic, it is quite legitimate to but wild-caught grass snakes, or any of the other species found here, if imported from overseas.

I will dig out the exact legislation and find out the correct situation, but my understanding is that it would be down to the seller to prove that the animal was being sold legally.

ian14 · I'm new here... Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 15

As promised, some answers as to the legality of selling grass snakes!!!

Section 9(5) of the Wildllife and Countryside Act 1981 refers to he sale of Schedule 5 species, which includes Grass Snakes. This states that the ofence is the possession for sale, sale of, or offering for sale WILD ANIMALS under schedule 5. The defintiton of a wild animal is one which was living in a wild state prior to capture.
In essence, if the animal is captive bred, it can be legally sold. I would strongly suggest, to cover yourself, photographing the snake laying eggs, and the eggs hatching.
The same applies to Common Lizards, Common Toads, Common and Palmate Newts and Slow-worms.
There is no offence of capturing these species and keeping them, but you cannot legally sell wild caught animals.
The other native species are totally protected, and capture would require an exemption licence, which is actually quite straight forward to obtain.

stubeanz · Key Member Joined: 03 Jan 2007 Posts: 350 Location: herts

quite intresting to read, before now i always thought even keeping native wildlife was ilegal if it wasnt injured.
if there was captive bred slowworms i would probably buy one as they are rather cute in a weird way Laughing

stu
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baldeagle · Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject:

Hi to all, very interesting post going on. I would have thought along with the obvious things like phots (as mentioned) Meticulous records including date of aquisition, aclimatisation to captive care, feeding details, growth, sloughing, etc ( all good herpers should be keeping records like this anyway.lol!)Then you would have breeding notes, mating notes, egg laying details all backed up by good pictures. All this would be a lot of trouble to go to just to breed a common grass snake or any wild caught species. To the herper enjoying his hobby it's all a pleasure and would go a long way towards proving that succesive generations were all captive bred. Cheers all.
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Crunchie · Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: Re: hoping to breed grass snakes

slippery42 · Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Uk Species

As an active consultant in UK conservation I'd also like to advise anyone thinking of keeping our native herps to think very very carefully about where they go to capture our declining herpetofauna.

Whilst the law is very clear and it is not an offense to keep native species other than fully protected species such as GCN etc if you take individuals from a vulnerable population you may condemn the population to gradual extinction.

There is clearly a moral issue here.

Enthusiasts may also get themselves into legal problems with taking animals from Nature Reserves and SSSI's.

UK species are in decline over much of the UK and in some areas past herp populations have been lost and we do not want to add to this by collecting.
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ian14 · I'm new here... Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 15

In response to the latest posts on this, the legislation is very clear, and is exactly as I put onto this thread. I have no idea where the belief has come from that only second generation CB animals can be sold, I can only suggest it is one of those things that has spread from a mistaken view on the matter. The legislation makes it clear that the sale of native species relates to wild caught animals only.

Crunchie · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: hoping to breed grass snakes

arthur cooke · Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject:

You often see eggs and spawn for sale, is this illegal.
On the point of collecting from the wild, if a species is in so much trouble that removing one would lead to their disappearance, then captive breeding is one of the answers, providing that we know why they are in trouble. also I have seen lots of grass-snakes in the wild, even on Hackney marshes, which is only a mile or two from the centre of London.
cheers arthur