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peaches
CaptiveBred Addict!
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 940
Location: somerset
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| medusa wrote: | | I did hear of someone who had 36 snakes destroyed because of this disease, about a year ago. |
Bloody hell how awful 
I think because of the length it can lie dormant for makes it such an awful disease and really does emphasize the 12 month quarantine for boids, in my mind anyway.
I do wonder how many do go un-notice because of the amount of people that don't get post mortems done, although how you can miss it is beyond me! Just thinking out loud really.
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Maureen C.
I'm new here...
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Scott W wrote: | If it's in your collection and you have a large number of boids then yes it would be a complete nightmare for you.
With regards to how widespread it is, well I'm not so sure on that. I don't know of anyone with it in there collections at the moment or even in the last 5 years. In fact I've not heard first hand of a single CONFIRMED case in the UK, although without doubt I'm sure there are / have been quite a few cases.
In the USA a big boid breeder had it and had his entire collection put down to stop it spreading, so that shows you how serious it should be taken. |
Yes, there are many cases out there Scott that have been confirmed. You would need to pay out around £275.00 for the privilege of reading the full facts that are listed, and they cannot be copied, but it does have a strong foot hold here now, as well as in the other Countries. We also have the Ophidian paramyxoviruses (OPMV), and the adenovirus as well, to name but a few, and sometimes several viruses are found within one poor snake. The wild caught snakes have the strongest resistance to all of these, with morphs being the weakest, and with being inbred and a weaker morph, well it goes without saying that they fall quick and hard.
Not just the USA had an entire collection put down either. Zoos, and large private collections here did as well. This is one reason why, if a person phones a zoo and asks them to take a large burmese, they now refuse, and they won't trust private breeders with helping with the conservation breeding for this reason either, as they for the main can't be trusted to keep the lines safe from the viruses, as like you, don't realise the full extent of the problem here.
I have people approaching me on a regular basis Scott, with the worry that they might have IBD in their collection, and often tests have proved just like peachesm, that they have, but unlike Peaches, they won't come forward, because of the situation that people knowing that snakes can harbour the virus for years without showing symptoms, won't wish to buy from the person, just in case another or all the other snakes could be contaminated. I am in the position as well where I can't and won't name those people, because of confidentiality, which I intend to honour. I will also point out here that IBD has also been diagnosed in colubrids (Family Colubridae) and viperids (Family Viperidae), but appears to be less common in these groups of snakes.
Hypothetically speaking Scott, you have two royals die, and have tests run and it comes back as IBD, will you announce it on these forums, and then try to sell boids from your stocks, and expect people to want to chance buying from you? They won't if they understand that by doing so they could in fact say goodbye to their entire collections. The fact that many boids remain as carriers, is the most awful scenario we could ever be faced with, but we are, and as such now, I would be treating anyone and everyone's boids as suspect, and thus quarantined from any of my stocks here. They would only ever be mixed with other stocks brought in of recent that had also had at least one years quarantine. As I am not likely to be buying or breeding any more however, hopefully I can just be around long enough to watch my oldies die from more natural causes.
By the way all, Yes entire collections were put down, but lets not forget all the snakes that were given/sold before the full facts were known about how serious the odd death here and there were. They went out, and that's why the IBD continued to spread, and is still spreading, but becoming harder to spot as well as some resistance is being built up by stronger morphs, which then become the worst scenario. 'The invisible mask of Death' to be precise.
Perhaps you would all be wise to note the amount of deaths of corns , etc., now as well from a different virus. Start counting the amount of it was all right last night, but I found it dead today posts. I can assure you there have been lots, and there will be many more, until they also realise they are dealing with a virus, then the posts will subside again for fear of others not wanting to buy from them, and so the viruses will continue to spread amongst the average keeper here on these forums. I think we have said goodbye to most of the valiant keepers that would put their hands up and sacrifice all for the protection of others. Progress here Scott? I think not. Enough said, anyway as it's a waste of time, as things like this are proving that they fall on mostly deaf ears, with so few taking note.
Just come to mind that this was another reason for many large collection keepers deciding to keep themselves to themselves, as they did not wish to risk someone leaving a visitor that could spell certain death if it had come from an infected source. I refer to the snake mite of course, but there would have been otherways too of transmitting the viruses.
Not for this forum Scott,but perhapsyo should be aware of the fact that the adenovirus has also been identified in the gila monsters as well.
Mo. |
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Maureen C.
I'm new here...
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| The Eggman wrote: | | I find you extremely patronising. |
There's a word for you too Eggman, but I will refrain from saying it. I have noticed your comments to others on these forums as it happens, and was less than impressed, and was also surprised that your comments remained, but perhaps they just slipped by the mods here, which I am not knocking them for, before you add a further comment.
By the way I will say sorry to any who do think the same as Eggman, as that is not the way I intended to come across. As I appear to make a real hash of attempting to keep members informed of what is occuring out there, I will avoid posting here again unless it is deemed as very important.
Thanks,
Mo.  |
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Maureen C.
I'm new here...
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: |
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I just tried to edit my last post, but it was too late, and it did not give me chance to save what I had added,  so now in a nut shell, I said that May be you did have a point on reflection, as I did read back and towards the end of my post a couple of comments there did sound patronising, but I promise you I had very valid reasons from personal experiences, whilst working along side a vet, for adding those comments, but being sworn to secrecy, I was not permitted to warn people of the fact that animals with IBD were being sold on. I tried to hint to some, but it fell on deaf ears, and the beggers selling the infected snakes on more than one occasion got away with it, and other collections had to be distroyed.
Mo. |
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Maureen C.
I'm new here...
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:53 am Post subject: |
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I was privledged in that I got to see, and help wth many exotic cases whilst working alongside a vet, and because of client confidentiality, I also had to abde by the same rules as the vet. I do not work there any longer, but the rules still apply to any of the clients and their animals, regardless of how bad I feel about it. Same goes for all the private pm's and emails asking for matters to be dealt with in confidence. They come to me because they know I will abide by their wishes.
Mo.
PS I think we should now end this silly conversation as it is detracting from what the thread is all about surely, which is unfair on the thread starter. I tried to answer along with extra info, but you chose to crititise, rather than add any further info, which is not usful here is it? |
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Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Maureen C. wrote: |
Yes, there are many cases out there Scott that have been confirmed. You would need to pay out around £275.00 for the privilege of reading the full facts that are listed, and they cannot be copied, |
And where would one locate a copy of this list, that can not be copied? Does this list the species, morph/mutation, how many generations CB, Origin of animal and of course owner? I'd be happy to pay £275 for that 
| Maureen C. wrote: |
The wild caught snakes have the strongest resistance to all of these, with morphs being the weakest, and with being inbred and a weaker morph, well it goes without saying that they fall quick and hard.
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Do you have any facts to back these particular claims up Maureen?
I certainly disagree with you that all morphs are weak and inbred, infact co-dom morphs are some of the most outbred reptiles available (after all who had $40'000 to spend on two animals  )
| Maureen C. wrote: |
Not just the USA had an entire collection put down either. Zoos, and large private collections here did as well. This is one reason why, if a person phones a zoo and asks them to take a large burmese, they now refuse, and they won't trust private breeders with helping with the conservation breeding for this reason either, as they for the main can't be trusted to keep the lines safe from the viruses, as like you, don't realise the full extent of the problem here.
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So if a zoo had an entire collection put down (I guess that's another secret ) why would a zoo trust another zoo if the virus is already in zoo collections? And as for helping with consevation, IBD has bugger all to do with that, it's zoo policy not to let animals get in to public hands, simple as that.
| Maureen C. wrote: |
I have people approaching me on a regular basis Scott, with the worry that they might have IBD in their collection, and often tests have proved just like peachesm, that they have, but unlike Peaches, they won't come forward, because of the situation that people knowing that snakes can harbour the virus for years without showing symptoms, won't wish to buy from the person, just in case another or all the other snakes could be contaminated. I am in the position as well where I can't and won't name those people, because of confidentiality, |
I'm sure you do Maureen, you are worshipped by many so of course you are the first point of call for these people when they think they have a problem. So just what % that come to you with IBD actually turn out with it? and how many cases is that a year?
| Maureen C. wrote: |
Hypothetically speaking Scott, you have two royals die, and have tests run and it comes back as IBD, will you announce it on these forums, and then try to sell boids from your stocks, and expect people to want to chance buying from you?
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Hypothetically speaking Maureen, YES I would withdraw any animals from sale, then inform all those that have bought snakes from me, then if needed destroy the entire collection. Believe it or not Maureen I don't actually do this for the money, I can afford to give every one of my snakes away and it wouldn't affect me or my collection. Infact I have given away Fiji Iguanas, Pilbara rock monitors, Leucistic Kings Monitors (that little lot was probably worth more than £20'000 ). Now of course I didn't them to just anyone nor would I crash the royal python market by breeding snakes to give away 
| Maureen C. wrote: |
Perhaps you would all be wise to note the amount of deaths of corns , etc., now as well from a different virus. Start counting the amount of it was all right last night, but I found it dead today posts.
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Hard facts Maureen, or just theories based on the amount of all right last night, but I found it dead today posts. I'm not saying I don't believe you at all, just always nice to have hard facts to back up such a serious, worrying post.
| Maureen C. wrote: |
I think we have said goodbye to most of the valiant keepers that would put their hands up and sacrifice all for the protection of others.
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Who would they of been Maureen, I don't remember too many keepers anouncing they had IBD and then advertising it so that any of their previous buyers could get there snakes tested?
| Maureen C. wrote: |
Progress here Scott? I think not. Enough said, anyway as it's a waste of time, as things like this are proving that they fall on mostly deaf ears, with so few taking note.
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Nice attitude Maureen  , I have NOT seen anywhere that it's falling on death ears or anyone saying that IBD does not exist, certainly not on this forum....We try to discuss such things on here and not delete entire topics just because we don't like the direction they have taken.
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Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Maureen C. wrote: |
your comments to others on these forums as it happens, and was less than impressed, and was also surprised that your comments remained, but perhaps they just slipped by the mods here
Mo. |
Maureen, As The Eggman pointed out, we DO NOT moderate opinions, that's NOT a moderators job on here. We do let members know if all they do is post negative comments or argumentative posts and of course ensure post remain 'clean'. We believe that if you posted something, then you should be accountable to that, not rely on a mod removing it.
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
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SiUK
Key Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 248
Location: Somerset
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Right in that book it says that it can only be passed on through sharing water bowls or if one wont eat then dont put it in with another or just touching the body fluids or contact with an infected snake, now my new hatchling boa came from a reputable source and its in a tub next to my python. I was my hands in between touching each snake or anything from in the snakes cage so surely this totally minimises the risk??
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Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like you are minimising the risks as far as you can.
I'm sure Maureen could post up some more ways of helping eliminate the risks even further and maybe even offer her views on what's needed to stop / reduce the instances of IBD and other viruses that she has heard about.
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
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Snowy
Contributing Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Can't this be tested for by a vet?
I am corn keeper but I do follow part of the MRSA procedure I used to have to do if it was found on a ward when I was an auxillary nurse and thoroughly clense my hands between snakes with steralising gel I got into the habbit early on so it has stuck. Which is similar to what you are doing Si so you are doing as much as you can there.
I also operate a quarantine period of upto six months for my snakes, I don't keep that many being more interested in keeping than breeding at this point plus I do have two bedrooms so have the space to do it. Do you have the space to do such a thing Si? A seperation quarentine period is something if you have the space to do you should.
Another thing if you can move over entirely to ceramic/glass water bowls. This allows then for steralising through boiling or wet them and nuke. You could also keep two bowls for each snake this way you have one in use while cleaning the other.
Unfortunately there is no way to totally remove risk as there are going to be things outside your control that could spread it, much like how MRSA and such is not able to be eliminated from hospitals, for example you could have a visitor who also keeps pythons who may have the disease in their collection unknowingly and they may pass it on to yours. It is a fact of life that these things happen unfortuantely as not everyone takes the same precautions, especially if they have not heard about it.
As long as you do as much as you can to minimse the risk then you should try not to worry too much about it. |
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