 |
Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred
A site to share your Reptile experiances & ask questions
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Lynne
___________
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| SteveL wrote: | prisons ? do you actually have any snakes or are you here to stir up some kind of arguments ? <this is just a few observations i have made from your recent posts on this forum and it is not intended to cause any row ...
do you keep a dog in a house(prison) or a budgy in a prison
or anything for that matter?
We are in prisons if you think that way lets face it most of us spend a lot of time in our houses(prisons)
 |
the differance being, we can open our door at any time and walk out it.
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jezz
CaptiveBred Addict!
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 727
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lynne wrote: | i just found this, dont know how i missed it.
in my opinion, taking a snake from the wild to live in captivity, is as bad as taking an elephant or a lion. both these animals would slowly go mad if taken from a vast area and placed in a tiny enclosure.
prisons are there to punish people. what have wc snakes ever done in order to be punished. cb's have never lived wild, so dont know wild. cb snakes are probably quite happy to integrate with us. wc would be a differant matter i would assume. or we would all have much more bites and scars than we do.
and jezz, you will always get folk who are only there to stir things, and they tend to try and make people asking interesting questions, look ridiculas. in the end they only make themselves look stupid. |
Thanks Lynne (:
I thought it was stupid aswell, and your right, anybody tries askinga decent question that they don't like and they'll try to make you look rediculous, but they end up looking like right fools, as proven.. 
Unfortantely it seems the stirrers don't have the brain capicity themselves to read a text, take it in, before having a good old rant.
Made me laugh anyways
I do agree with you on 'we can open our door and walk out anytime'
We are in our houses by choice, not by force?
_________________
x.Jessie.x
2.1.0 Python Regius
1.0.0 Boa Constrictor Imperator
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getulus californiae
1.0.0 Pantherophis guttata guttata
0.1.0 Eublepharis macularius
0.1.0 Testudo hermanni
0.1.0 Grammostola rosea |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MJ
Site Moderator
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 5738
Location: London
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Jezz"] | Lynne wrote: | | We are in our houses by choice, not by force? |
Exactly which is why we have gypsies and even some homeless people prefer being outside 
Just to say I was the person who brought this on in a statement I made on the phone Friday night  I'm glad you got some good answers with this 
_________________
Paul
For all your Tropical plant and Naturalistic Vivarium needs please enjoy Urban Bromeliad |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynne
___________
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
someone also asked about getting meals laid down to them. probably most wc snakes, wont eat for months. and stress to a snake is anything it hasnt came across before. so sitting in a tub waiting for a huge giant to open you box every week and chucking you a dead animal, will stress a snake.
dogs, are quite happy to interact with us. would wolves be as happy. cats put up with us, i doubt the domestic cats cousin the lion, would be.
a snake bred in captivity only knows tubs and vivs. they dont know dirt tunnels or holes in the ground in which to curl up in. so i would imagine that cb snakes are quite happy, or to be more precise, put up with living as we choose to have them live.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stuart Marquis
Key Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | i just found this, don't know how i missed it.
in my opinion, taking a snake from the wild to live in captivity, is as bad as taking an elephant or a lion. both these animals would slowly go mad if taken from a vast area and placed in a tiny enclosure. |
This is an ethical/moral issue that primarily resides within you (as a human observer capable of such thought) and doesn't really take into account the animals in question. By suggesting that taking a snake is just as bad as taking an elephant or a lion you are implying that there are no evolutionary/intelligence etc differences between snakes, elephants and lions. This is clearly not the case. Elephants and lions may show signs of madness in captivity (I don't know enough about them to disagree with you on that) but I've never heard of instances of snakes going mad due to the confines of captivity. Maybe this is because snakes tend not to make use of vast areas even when in the wild and that they actually prefer tiny (relatively speaking) enclosed spaces (under logs, rodent burrows etc etc).
| Quote: | | prisons are there to punish people. what have WC snakes ever done in order to be punished. cb's have never lived wild, so dont know wild. cb snakes are probably quite happy to integrate with us. wc would be a differant matter i would assume. or we would all have much more bites and scars than we do. |
In what way are they being punished and in what way is the vivarium a prison? They get a parasite and predator free environment, a regular meal, access to a vet which would not be the case in the wild, and an opportunity to breed when instinct tells them its time to do so. In any case, if the vivarium is a prison, its a prison for both CB and WC as the conditions are identical for both. What you're saying is you don't mind keeping a CB animal in a prison because that's all its ever known. That to me sounds just as morally dubious as keeping WC...if you're (incorrectly) thinking in terms of prisons, that is.
cheers
Stuart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynne
___________
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Stuart Marquis wrote: | | Quote: | i just found this, don't know how i missed it.
in my opinion, taking a snake from the wild to live in captivity, is as bad as taking an elephant or a lion. both these animals would slowly go mad if taken from a vast area and placed in a tiny enclosure. |
This is an ethical/moral issue that primarily resides within you (as a human observer capable of such thought) and doesn't really take into account the animals in question. By suggesting that taking a snake is just as bad as taking an elephant or a lion you are implying that there are no evolutionary/intelligence etc differences between snakes, elephants and lions. This is clearly not the case. Elephants and lions may show signs of madness in captivity (I don't know enough about them to disagree with you on that) but I've never heard of instances of snakes going mad due to the confines of captivity. Maybe this is because snakes tend not to make use of vast areas even when in the wild and that they actually prefer tiny (relatively speaking) enclosed spaces (under logs, rodent burrows etc etc).
| Quote: | | prisons are there to punish people. what have WC snakes ever done in order to be punished. cb's have never lived wild, so dont know wild. cb snakes are probably quite happy to integrate with us. wc would be a differant matter i would assume. or we would all have much more bites and scars than we do. |
In what way are they being punished and in what way is the vivarium a prison? They get a parasite and predator free environment, a regular meal, access to a vet which would not be the case in the wild, and an opportunity to breed when instinct tells them its time to do so. In any case, if the vivarium is a prison, its a prison for both CB and WC as the conditions are identical for both. What you're saying is you don't mind keeping a CB animal in a prison because that's all its ever known. That to me sounds just as morally dubious as keeping WC...if you're (incorrectly) thinking in terms of prisons, that is.
cheers
Stuart |
you have your morals, i have mine. as long as i stick to mine, and dont start thinking that because I THINK i have a better thought process, I AM better than anything else on the planet. HOW do you know they are not as affected as lions and elephants. i dont mind keeping a cb animal, cause they have never known what it is to live wild. and im not thinking incorrectly about prisons. aye prisoners have tv,s 4 meals a day etc. but you know what would drive me mental in a prison, not having choices. not being able to open a door and go outside. having to ask permission to do ANYTHING. because i have lived as free as you can in this country, that would sent me mad.
BUT. if i had been born and raised in a prison, then i would take this as the norm, and it probably wouldnt bother me.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I really don't think that the majority of species (reptiles) that are wild caught 'go mad' or 'miss being in the wild'.
Sure a snake that has lived in a certain area, used to certain smells, know's where it's prey normally is and where to avoid predators will certainly take a little longer to settle than CB snake but that's not because they miss the freedom of the wild.
You just can not compare mammals needs to those of reptiles, they are just way too far apart in how they 'operate' etc.
BTW, I don't have a problem with anyone who morally isn't happy to keep WC, that's fine.
_________________
Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynne
___________
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 8265
Location: Kincardine-on-Forth
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i use the phrase 'go mad' as a general observation.
you know those video shows that are on tv, and you see horses that are supposedly 'dancing'. well they arent dancing, what they are showing is signs of stress at being stuck in a stable. they weave from side to side. etc. now instead of sorting the problem, which would be turn them out in a field beside its pals, they are herd animals, we choose to make them wear collares to limit movement etc. personally i would turn them out. mine live out 24/7.
stress shows itself in differant ways. i would never knowingly keep a wc snake.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lynne wrote: | someone also asked about getting meals laid down to them. probably most wc snakes, wont eat for months. and stress to a snake is anything it hasnt came across before. so sitting in a tub waiting for a huge giant to open you box every week and chucking you a dead animal, will stress a snake.
dogs, are quite happy to interact with us. would wolves be as happy. cats put up with us, i doubt the domestic cats cousin the lion, would be.
a snake bred in captivity only knows tubs and vivs. they dont know dirt tunnels or holes in the ground in which to curl up in. so i would imagine that cb snakes are quite happy, or to be more precise, put up with living as we choose to have them live. |
Most wild caught snakes do feed almost straight away (I know that from working at a reptile dealers for many years, when pretty much 99% of all stock was WC). A few species would take a longer time to settle in terms of not 'taking flight' everytime you approached the viv. Quite a few would rub their noses sore on the glass but again that was limited to a few species that were mostly diurnal and very active naturally and even the cb examples displayed the same 'roaming' tendancies.
As for snakes being happy, I can't quite see that they even have that emotion. Perhaps 'content' i.e. they aren't hungry, thirty and are at the right temp for what they need but to them sitting under a cornflake box digesting a meal on a heat mat will be exactly the same for them as laying in a 30 acre field, laying under a rotting log digesting it's meal. The only difference being that they will be far more aware of predators and need to expend far more energy keeping out of harms way and finding food. I'm sure given the choice of food with 12" of their rotting log or food somewhere in that 30acre field they would eat the nearest rodent rather than have the 'fun and freedom' of searching 30acres while under threat of predators.
_________________
Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stuart Marquis
Key Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | you have your morals, i have mine. as long as i stick to mine, and dont start thinking that because I THINK i have a better thought process, I AM better than anything else on the planet. HOW do you know they are not as affected as lions and elephants. |
Yes, but your morals should be based on something tangible, not just plucked out of the ether, and they certainly shouldn't be stuck to if the weight of evidence appears to contradict them. You're absolutely right, I don't know that snakes are different to lions and elephants in that respect (as I'm not any of those species), its just that the evidence appears to suggest major differences in cognitive ability between them therefore the reasonable conclusion to draw is that there are differences in how they'd be effected (if at all).
| Quote: | | i dont mind keeping a cb animal, cause they have never known what it is to live wild. |
So you're OK with denying freedom, just not with taking it away in the first place? This is double standards in my opinion (if you see it as a prison, that is).
cheers
Stuart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
