Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred

[albob]

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[BULLSNAKE]

very nice, how are you heating the enclosure?
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[albob]

htet uyy

[Peter Parrot]

Great looking species.

Do you have a thermometer in the tank? I ask because with all the heating you describe, it sounds like it could well be getting too warm for them in there.
The 60 watt daylight bulb that you mention, can you elaborate on that please?. Do you mean that it is a normal domestic type of bulb or a flourescent tube?

Amphibians off all kinds, even species from continents a good deal warmer than our own, live in cool conditions. In Asia where this species occurs, they will be in the shady areas and if it get`s too warm and dry, they will dig down out of the heat into the coolness of the soil. Your toads only need to be kept at a temperature of around 24c-26c in the day, dropping down to 20 or there abouts in the night. The interior of most centrally heated homes often dictates that species such as Bufo melanostictus require nothing more than a thermostaticly controlled heat mat. I would have thought that the mat in your tank, combined with the heat from a 60 watt bulb (assuming it`s a normal domestic bulb) as well as the heater in the water section AND of course the background temperature of the room that the tank is situated in could well be causing the temperature in the confines of the tank to rise too far for the toad`s comfort. The heat mat alone would be adequate IMO.

The lighting is purely for the plants benefit, (the animals themselves would be just fine without it) as well as for you to see the toads and is best provided in the form of a flourescent tube. Make sure if using a flourescent tube also that the starter unit is outside of the tank and not in the lid anywhere as that too generates a fair amount of heat that would raise the temperature of the tank`s interior also.

Talking about lighting brings me on to the plants in your tank. I notice that they are from a Garden centre of some kind by the price label on the pot. Plants from sources such as garden centres and DIY superstores are almost certain to have been treated with pesticide of some sort or other at some stage, and the compost that they sit in also is likely to have traces of both pesticide and chemical fertiliser in it . Amphibians of all kinds do not have a water tight skin and as such can absorb all manner of toxins through it. All plants should be made safe by taking them out of the pots, and rinsing the foliage thoroughly. As well as this I would remove the compost from the root system also. Be sure to rinse all traces away. Then the "safe" plants can be re-potted in a chemical and pesticide free compost, or make your own out of a blend of peat, orchid bark, and untreated sphagnum moss.
The water section could also be capable of causing potential problems I am afraid. The genus bufo produce toxins as I am sure you know. A few individuals together in the same small confined body of water can, over a relatively short space of time, cause the water to become contaminated enough to be potentially harmful to themselves and each other.
I know that you are trying to create a naturalistic look, but it is often far better to keep it simpler for the ease of hygiene. I would simply give them a shallow water bowl of dechlorinated water, which could easily be refreshed regularly eliminating any toxicicity build up. The water would not need to be heated, as the air temperature inside tha tank would mean it would be plenty warm enough anyway.
I hope this helps.
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[albob]

there is

[Peter Parrot]

If your thermometers are right, then your temperatures are fine.
Do you use digital thermometers? The dial ones are very innacurate and take in water easily.
Sorry to hear that you have lost half of the animals. It is a fair indication that something is wrong somewhere. Also the bulb, you still have not stated whether it is a flourescent tube or a bayonet fitting bulb, whicn emit a lot of heat. You say that it was sold to you as a bulb suitable for amphibians. Sold by who? A pet shop?
When I saw the plants in the pot with the price label still attached (which could also still harbour traces of pesticide as plants from garden centres etc get sprayed en mass and everything comes in contact with the pesticide as a result of this) I thought to myself that if the label hadn`t been removed from the pot, then it was doubtful that the plants would have been washed either or the original compost removed also. It`s something which a lot of people new to amphibians are unaware of, so It had to be pointed out.

The water area is still something that I would change also. The species that you have is a fairly large species, primarily terrestrial as well as toxic., and four of them kept together in a tank. I don`t need to explain that all again. Which animals were spending the most time in the water is irrelevant, as the two animals that have died could well be the weakest and more susceptible to any of the dangers that I have cited to you.

I am not saying that any of the reasons I have given are the definate cause of the death of your animals, but they are all risks well capable of causing them. The other thing to consider is that you stated in an earlier thread that the animals were imported (so almost certainly W/C) and barely stayed with the dealer that you bought them from for 24 hours. As I have said previously on another thread concerning these animals, this, though not your fault in any way, is far from satisfactory. It is always a gamble when buying animals in such circumstances. They could well have a gut load of parasites, which with the stress of importation often bloom to leathally high levels. Also, you have no way of telling whether they have even so much as been fed since their exportation, or how many of their companions died on or before the journey.

You PMd me asking for possible reasons as to why half of the animals have died. I have given all possible reasons that I can think of given the information that I can glean from what you have given me combined with the pictures of the set up. I replied on the forum as that is what forums are for, for every one to benefit from information given. I am sorry that you have had such an unpleasant start to keeping amphibians, and I hope that it hasn`t put you off continuing to do so.

After almost 30 years of keeping them myself however, I would still advise you to to keep the set up less elaborate and more simple. A peat/orchid bark and moss substrate with a few bark hides and leaf litter with a simple water dish that is easily replenished and kept hygenic with very little disturbance to the animals is a far safer bet. If you want to add plants , of course do so but just to reiterate, always take the precautions mentioned earlier.

As requested by you in your PM, that is my advice. If you choose to ignore it well that`s your choice entirely. I suggest in that case that if you continue to lose the animals that you take the matter up with whoever supplied you with the animals. My last tip to you would be not to purchase animals under such circumstances again, but rather to choose a species to start with that can be bought as healthy strong captive bred individuals. Listen to the breeder`s advice, and as regards the set up,above all keep it simple.

Good luck.
_________________
YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
Llinell Gymorth / Helpline: 08702 40 48 41

[albob]

i it

[Peter Parrot]

The water system LOOKS great, it`s the practicalities of hygene associated with it with the species concerned that I feel could be a potential problem.

The lighting and thermometer/temperature sound fine now that you have explained fully.

I notice now that you are referring to your source for these toads as the "breeder". I thought that you said that he only had them for 24 hours?
As such, he is not a breeder but a dealer.
_________________
YSBRYDOLI POBL, GWELLA LLEOEDD
INSPIRING PEOPLE, IMPROVING PLACES
www.btcv.org
Visit our website - Gwelwch ein Gwefan
www.btcvcymru.org
Llinell Gymorth / Helpline: 08702 40 48 41

[albob]

he is a

[MJ]

Then he would be the dealer and not the breeder... I breed a few frogs but if I was to specifically go get a frog/toad for some one I am then a dealer as I am just dealing in that animal I havnt bred it.

who is the "breeder" ? just wondering becuase they sound kinda funny

I would add about the tank and potential problems but pete has coverd everything very well... I hope 2 remaining tpads d well for you.
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Paul

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