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Reptile Forum, Reptile Classifieds - CaptiveBred
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Tops
I'm new here...
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| toyah wrote: |
It may give you extra information, or make you more/less likely to buy the animal. For example, if I was looking for a normal female to eventually be mated to a pastel male, then while I'd be happy with any nice bright CB female, I'd be more inclined to buy a nice bright CB normal from an excellent quality pastel parent as I feel she'd be more likely to produce good quality pastels. |
Who is to say that the pastel parent is excellent quality? Ive seen plenty of really crappy pastels out there. Most of them will end up producing more crappy pastels eventually. At the same time there are also plenty of excellent quality normals.
'sibling' is a phrase used by some people to give a slight increase in the price of their normals IMO. Just the same as 'special' 'fancy' and any other random name people want to make up. At the end of the day, its just a normal. |
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toyah
Key Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Tops wrote: | | Who is to say that the pastel parent is excellent quality? Ive seen plenty of really crappy pastels out there. |
I am, when I look at the parents and see what I think of them  That's why I said I'd prefer a bright normal from a quality pastel parent. I'd be even less likely to buy a normal from a poor quality pastel parent as I don't want those colour modifiers in my breeding snakes. |
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_dave_
Key Member
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 449
Location: Kent
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| i sold some normal males this year for 35 quid each.. the father was a lesser.. but so what? there still normals and there not carrying any kind of genetic trait.. |
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Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The EggMan wrote: |
do you understand how genetics work? there are no 'colour modifyers' in normals |
 If that's the case, surely that would make line breeding impossible John 
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Please DO NOT pm orders for reptiles, send email instead scott@captivebred.co.uk |
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toyah
Key Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The EggMan wrote: |
Well you are incorrect..............
A normal from a pastel clutch is genetically NO different from a normal from any other clutch.
| toyah wrote: | | I don't want those colour modifiers in my breeding snakes. |
do you understand how genetics work? there are no 'colour modifyers' in normals |
While I am far from an expert, I appear to have a clearer understanding of genetics then you, judging by this post.
While pastels may have one major gene that makes them a pastel, they will have many genes that contribute to minor aspects of colour and patternation. Other things, of course, may contribute to the overall look of a snake (I would guess that nutrition and incubation also make a difference), at least part of it is controlled through these minor genes (modifiers). Some may be visible in normals, and give a brighter colour or some other difference - some may not be, and only change the phenotype of the animal once combined with the pastel gene. But the fact remains that if you have a spectacular looking animal, you increase the chances of producing more similar looking animals by linebreeding and carefully selecting animals that are more likely to have inherited (and so in turn pass on) these modifying genes as well as the "major" genes you're after. |
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Scott W
Site Admin
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 13355
Location: London, England.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| toyah wrote: | | you increase the chances of producing more similar looking animals by linebreeding and carefully selecting animals that are more likely to have inherited (and so in turn pass on) these modifying genes as well as the "major" genes you're after. |
my thoughts too
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toyah
Key Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The EggMan wrote: | | And how did you come to that conclusion then? |
Because it's how every other species that's ever been selectively bred by any person works. Everything from dogs to cats to horses to corn snakes to leopard geckos to GTPs to sheep.
| The EggMan wrote: | | If I breed two high white pieds together will I get more high white pieds? If not will it atleast increase my chances of getting a high white pied? |
Piebald genes in most species have proven very variable, with seemingly random amounts of white appearing (especially in outbred specimens) - and I'm sure you're aware, there's not much work been done on selectively bred piebaldism in snakes. Selective breeding in many strains of mammal has managed to get a more predictable amount of white spotting to appear in their offspring (to the point that standards can call for quite specific amounts and distribution of white), but it appears that the neural crest development is to a significant degree outwith of genetic control. So I guess it might be possible to selectively breed for higher white piebalds over a number of generations - but it would depend on the exact effect the piebald gene in royals has on neural crest development as to what extent it would be possible.
| The EggMan wrote: | | Line breeding does nothing but cause problems. As has been proven by the spider and caramel albino morphs. |
I have no interest in caramel albinos, and apart from vaguely hearing something about kinking, I've no real knowledge of it. The only problem I have heard about in spiders is the wobbles/stargazing symptom, which I would be very surprised to hear was a problem caused by linebreeding.
I have known stargazing spiders to turn up in clutches of spiders to completely unrelated normal females, and I've also been told the problem is limited to spiders (ie - normals in spider clutches would be unaffected). To me, this suggests that the spinning is a neurological problem linked to (or caused by) the spider gene, a threshold trait or again similarly influenced by incubation, diet, modifying genes, or just plain luck. I'd be interested in any information you had that showed it somehow was caused by linebreeding? Neural crest abnormalities in other animals often present symptoms such as jerky and uncoordinated movements, but the only way that the frequency could be increased through inbreeding/linebreeding is surely if the problematic gene is a recessive? |
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jamie_s
Site Moderator
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 1963
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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it amazes me how people put the spider problems down to line breeding?with any don or co dom morph there is less line breeding than any other genetically reproducable morph.i think the problems with spiders is just that a problem with spiders,sad but true 
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toyah
Key Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 228
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| The EggMan wrote: | | I don't understand how you came up with the theory that a problematic gene would have to be recessive, but like I said we will have to agree to differ. |
You appear to have completely misread what I wrote there. Inbreeding increases homozygosity. Inbreeding could lead to an increased frequency of the expression of a particular gene if the gene was recessive (as it would increase the homozygosity of that gene in the inbred population). At no point did I come up with any theory that problematic genes would have to be recessive.
It's interesting to learn that it's been proven "beyond reasonable doubt" that the amount of white in piebalds does not appear to be genetically determined. How many generations of "high whites" were bred together to determine this to such a level, do you know? I'd imagine it's at least four or five with no crossing to low whites or normals (which may carry "low white" modifiers) to determine that it's definitely not an inheritable trait?
I must admit I find it odd that you believe linebreeding can do something as extreme as cause neurological problems in spiders, even when they're outcrossed, but don't believe that when carefully used it can even modestly influence the colour of a royal python overall... |
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Young_Gun
Captivebred Communist
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1420
Location: Liverpool
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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So if I put my two pastel siblings together do I get a pastel?
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